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Masterpiece Cake Shop Is At It Again

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
38,257
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Who fucking cares ??? Bake your own fucking cake. It's supposed to be a free country. Nobody should be forced by the State to do anything against their will. Including paying income taxes or baking a God Damn Cake ! Now fuck off and go panty shopping at Value Village. When the hell did Earth become Planet Retard !
Squallido Grande why so upset, would you like some extra cream in your mocha latte?
 

LT56

Banned
Feb 16, 2013
1,604
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I thought it was the LGBT groups harassing the baker that lost the case? Doesn't that mean they are the losers? LOL!
Apparently they have not given up and have not accepted defeat. They are gonna keep coming back again...and again...and again...and again...until justice prevails.

Good luck to all the bigoted cake shop owners out there...it’s only a matter of time before...


 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
5,069
0
0
They want to put him out off business first, martyrdom doesn't put food on the table. He's being an idiot, this is Colorado not Mississippi. It has a large progressive base that would be ashamed to be seen there - and rednecks aren't exactly partial to cakes, pastries and frappuccino.
Well, then let him choose between his religion and success in the bakery trade.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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Are you expressing a legal opinion? Because I'm pretty confident that his defense will be, again, that he expresses his personal artistry in the cakes he prepares, that his religious views prohibit recognition that those created in the Lord's image can reject the work of The Creator by redefining their sexual identity (pretty sure there will be scriptural support for that interpretation of the Bible), and that forcing him to make such cakes is to him, forcing him to express a heresy. However, since he didn't go looking for this fight, he'll have the additional sympathy of the court that the litigants, as expressed without embarrassment by the OP, were actively seeking to punish him for his views. And he'll win again. And eventually, the state of Colorado and/or these litigants will be cutting him some big cheques, but not before years of stress. All because no one in the LGBT community in Colorado is prepared to open a bake shop? Such utter nonsense.
I'll leave legal opinions to legal people. I expressed the simple practicalities. Both sides were spoiling for a fight, and he chose to pick one he could have easily avoided without ever bringing his beliefs into it. He was asked to back a simple straightforward cake for a person, who he chooses to define as a a sinner against his personal religion and refused on that basis. Had he just baked the simple blue and pink birthday cake requested, there'd have no o'er-weening views to punish anyone for. Now the courts will have to decide whose self-appointed role as Scourge of Sinners shall prevail. At great expense to all sides.

What a silly hill he chose to die on.
 

Aardvark154

New member
Jan 19, 2006
53,773
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Practice your religion at home in your own private life.
But that isn't what freedom of worship is about, nor is it what the First Amendment states.



Someone should ask this guy to bake a wedding cake for an inter-racial wedding. I’d be willing to bet large sums of money that his “religion” prohibits that too
Where as there is nothing to indicate that this is true.
 

Aardvark154

New member
Jan 19, 2006
53,773
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0
I'll leave legal opinions to legal people. I expressed the simple practicalities. Both sides were spoiling for a fight, and he chose to pick one he could have easily avoided without ever bringing his beliefs into it. He was asked to back a simple straightforward cake for a person, who he chooses to define as a a sinner against his personal religion and refused on that basis. Had he just baked the simple blue and pink birthday cake requested, there'd have no o'er-weening views to punish anyone for. Now the courts will have to decide whose self-appointed role as Scourge of Sinners shall prevail. At great expense to all sides.

What a silly hill he chose to die on.
I rather doubt the client would have been happy if he had picked a cake out of the pastry case with multi coloured icing and quoted her a price.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
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I rather doubt the client would have been happy if he had picked a cake out of the pastry case with multi coloured icing and quoted her a price.
Indeed not, he specializes in cakes to order and the customer specified a pink and blue birthday cake. That's it; no 'cake-based acknowledgement or recognition' of anything but a birthday, that might reasonably bring his commercial enterprise into conflict with his religious views.

The customer did mention he was trans, and that's when the 'religious' penny dropped and the order was refused: "We don't serve your kind here."

Why didn't he simply post a sign warning customers to provide proof of their gender at birth before ordering? To go with the sign about acceptable sexual preferences.
 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
5,069
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I'll leave legal opinions to legal people. I expressed the simple practicalities. Both sides were spoiling for a fight, and he chose to pick one he could have easily avoided without ever bringing his beliefs into it. He was asked to back a simple straightforward cake for a person, who he chooses to define as a a sinner against his personal religion and refused on that basis. Had he just baked the simple blue and pink birthday cake requested, there'd have no o'er-weening views to punish anyone for. Now the courts will have to decide whose self-appointed role as Scourge of Sinners shall prevail. At great expense to all sides.

What a silly hill he chose to die on.
You're ignoring even the plaintiff's version of the facts. He told the baker he wanted a cake designed to celebrate his transition:

"She mentioned that her birthday coincides with the anniversary of coming out as transgender, so she was hoping for a design that was pink on the inside and blue on the outside to commemorate that. Masterpiece Cakeshop refused to make the cake on the grounds that it doesn’t make cakes celebrating gender transition"

The plaintiff was the one who ascribed the significance of the design, not the baker. The baker just took his word for it.

I don't think the baker has chosen to die. I think the plaintiff has chosen to try to kill him.

Plus, as I understand it (not religious myself), a truly religious person does not "choose" which hills to be religious on. He is religious on all of them. No more than the plaintiff chooses which bakeries he's going to be transgender at.
 

LT56

Banned
Feb 16, 2013
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But that isn't what freedom of worship is about, nor is it what the First Amendment states.
He is free to worship wherever he wishes and express whatever bigoted hateful views he likes...but he’s not allowed to impose his views on others if he wants to do business in the public domain.

No different than turning away a black person at a lunch counter in Alabama.
 

LT56

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Feb 16, 2013
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...

Where as there is nothing to indicate that this is true.
Just a theory. Bigoted assholes tend to be bigoted against more than just one thing.

I’ll bet you a cake celebrating someone’s successful immigration claim for asylum would violate his religious beliefs too.

Call him up and ask...I dare you!
 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
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No different than turning away a black person at a lunch counter in Alabama.
Really? Which scripture says "thou shalt not lunch with a black person"? Which church claims there is such a scripture?

Now if you were talking about women and men using the same swimming pool at the same time, you might have had a point.
 

LT56

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Feb 16, 2013
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Really? Which scripture says "thou shalt not lunch with a black person"? Which church claims there is such a scripture?

Now if you were talking about women and men using the same swimming pool at the same time, you might have had a point.
The Bible was used to justify slavery for many generations. Sarah Sanders used biblical verses that had historically been used to justify slavery as the Trump administration’s justification for separating immigrant children from their parents at the border.

Google it.
 

LT56

Banned
Feb 16, 2013
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Actually, BudPlug, because you are such a swell guy and I feel that we have developed a closeness here on terb (in a manly way, of course) I am posting this article to help you out:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7649390

The Biblical Roots of Racism

The tragic shooting in South Carolina offers another painful reminder of American Christianity’s troubled relationship with race and segregation. While it is true that most of the great abolitionists were inspired by their Christian faith, it is also true that their opponents were inspired by their Christian faith. As a result, much contemporary racism is rooted in Christianity.

Unfortunately, the Bible is not very helpful when it comes to race issues. Many have found within its pages justifications for slavery, abuse of African-Americans and segregation. Unfortunately, the divisions between the races are exacerbated, not diminished, by Christianity.

Martin Luther King Jr. famously said in 1963, “It is appalling that the most segregated hour of Christian America is eleven o’clock on Sunday morning.” Fifty years later, this remains true, as America’s churches lag behind its schools, businesses, military and almost every other institution in escaping old taboos about mixing the races. Compare the diversity in the pages of Christianity Today to that of Sports Illustrated or Rolling Stone.

The single greatest humiliation of American Christianity is its long endorsement of slavery and even longer endorsement of racism — a dark cloud still clearly visible at eleven o’clock on Sunday mornings — a cloud that mocks the vision of Martin Luther King and the leaders of the civil rights movement.

The fundamentalist Bob Jones University in South Carolina proudly flew the racist torch as long as possible until it was forced by the IRS to integrate in 1971 or risk losing its tax exemption. It complied by admitting only married blacks to discourage racial mixing. It was not until 2000 that the University, in the midst of a great uproar, reversed its policy on interracial dating. Bob Jones Sr., the university’s founding president, had famously said, “White folks and colored folks, you listen to me. You cannot run over God’s plan and God’s established order without having trouble. God never meant to have one race. It was not His purpose at all. God has a purpose for each race.”

Jones’ warning shaped the university at an official level until recently and continues to shape it informally. The University has, however, officially rejected it racist heritage, and is struggling to free itself from its own bondage to a terrible ideology.

Bob Jones University is just one example of how American Christians have used the Bible to promote racism. When the Northern and Southern Baptists split in 1845 over the issue of slavery, Southern Baptists were using an obscure reference in Genesis to justify owning slaves — the so-called “Mark of Cain.” In Genesis 4, we read of God placing a visible “mark” of some sort on Cain for murdering his brother and lying about it when God asked what had happened. As early as the fifth century, Cain’s curse was interpreted as black skin, and millions of Christians have used it to justify slavery.

A bit later in Genesis, we read of Noah cursing his son Ham, declaring that his offspring would henceforth serve those of his brothers. The “Curse of Ham” was another Biblical justification for slavery. One particularly disturbing appeal to the Bible argued that Noah and his family on the ark were all white, so any blacks on the ark must have been among the animals.

Christian slave owners in the United States operated within a tradition that provided biblical justification for owning slaves in the same way that one owned horses. The arguments were varied: The Ten Commandments instruct us not to “covet our neighbor’s manservant (= slave),” but make no comment about our neighbor owning a slave in the first place. We are also told not to covet his donkey. The great patriarch Abraham — Kierkegaard’s “Knight of Faith” — owned slaves. The apostle Paul returned a runaway slave to his master. Jesus did not condemn the widespread slavery in the Roman world. If slavery was wrong, why does the Bible not condemn it?

The prevailing view was, unfortunately, quite logical, or at least Biblical. If God created the races in their present forms, as most evangelical Christians believe and which must be true if the earth is just a few thousand years old, why did He create separate races? Assuming the separate races are a part of God’s plan, should we not join Bob Jones Sr., in his warning that we must maintain God’s divinely ordained races by preventing interracial marriage?


Biblically-based assaults on blacks have waned over the years, thankfully, but never fully disappeared. In a highly significant and symbolic move, the Southern Baptists did apologize in 1995 for their endorsement of slavery, segregation and white supremacism. And in 2012, the sixteen-million-member body elected its first African-American president to preside over an encouragingly diverse community. So there is hope.

But as long as a literally interpreted Bible remains the authority for millions of Christians, we will be struggling with its mixed messages about the meaning of the races.
 

HungSowel

Well-known member
Mar 3, 2017
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Private business, gays and trans are not a protected class, there are other cake makers who would gladly do business.
 

LT56

Banned
Feb 16, 2013
1,604
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Private business, gays and trans are not a protected class, there are other cake makers who would gladly do business.
You are wrong. In Colorado gay, lesbian, and transgendered persons are indeed a protected class of persons under the state’s Public Accomodations Act.

This bigoted baker needs to stick to baking cookies for his church’s socials and stay out of the public square.
 

HungSowel

Well-known member
Mar 3, 2017
2,706
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You are wrong. In Colorado gay, lesbian, and transgendered persons are indeed a protected class of persons under the state’s Public Accomodations Act.

This bigoted baker needs to stick to baking cookies for his church’s socials and stay out of the public square.
If they are a protected class, then unleash the dogs of hell upon the baker.
 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
5,069
0
0
Actually, BudPlug, because you are such a swell guy and I feel that we have developed a closeness here on terb (in a manly way, of course) I am posting this article to help you out:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7649390
Thanks for the post. Long piece, but not much scripture. Typical Huffpost fluff. The Mark of Cain might refer to black skin? Weak. Fascinating as it was to read a biased and unrepresentatively focused take on the history of bible interpretation largely dealing with a time when most people couldn't even read, to get to the point, I take it that you are agreeing that Southern Baptist theology does not hold to this interpretation today, or even recently? It would appear not. Also, seems to be nothing there even addressing whether it is ok to have lunch with a slave, whether or not he bears the Mark of Cain.

Unlike a number of churches that, today, view denying your birth gender to be a rejection of God's works and plan.
 

LT56

Banned
Feb 16, 2013
1,604
1
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Thanks for the post. Long piece, but not much scripture. Typical Huffpost fluff. The Mark of Cain might refer to black skin? Weak. Fascinating as it was to read a biased and unrepresentatively focused take on the history of bible interpretation largely dealing with a time when most people couldn't even read, to get to the point, I take it that you are agreeing that Southern Baptist theology does not hold to this interpretation today, or even recently? It would appear not. Also, seems to be nothing there even addressing whether it is ok to have lunch with a slave, whether or not he bears the Mark of Cain.

Unlike a number of churches that, today, view denying your birth gender to be a rejection of God's works and plan.
The point is, Sir, that if someone wanted to use Biblical scripture to justify racism they could easily do so...and in fact it has been done for hundreds of years. Using scripture to justify homophobia or transphobia is no different.

Just like turning away a Black person from a lunch counter in Alabama. Both are wrong; neither is entitled to legal protection.

Capisce?
 

Bud Plug

Sexual Appliance
Aug 17, 2001
5,069
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The point is, Sir, that if someone wanted to use Biblical scripture to justify racism they could easily do so...and in fact it has been done for hundreds of years. Using scripture to justify homophobia or transphobia is no different.

Just like turning away a Black person from a lunch counter in Alabama. Both are wrong; neither is entitled to legal protection.

Capisce?
The threshold test for claiming the protection of freedom of religion is two-fold. One, you actually have to be an adherent of the religion you claim is pertinent to the issue. Two, that religion has to actually require or prohibit the action that would otherwise be in conflict with the law.

Your example might possibly be relevant if we were to travel to a particular backwater in a time machine, but it isn't relevant today. No faith today is claiming that it is contrary to their religion to dine alongside a black man. So, in the current context, there is nothing instructive from Huffpost's fascinating, quasi-factual tour through history. Likewise, if the baker's church were to appear at court and say the baker was full of it, that they are cool with celebrating transition of gender, he'd be cooked. Yet, no one even challenged the religious tenet he relied upon last time, and no one is likely to challenge it this time, because no one doubts that there are bona fide religions which disapprove of, from a theological perspective, transitioning between genders.

If you are expecting a court to say of a bona fide religion - "hey, that's a stupid belief" - you will be sadly disappointed.

Comprendez?
 

kkelso

Well-known member
Apr 27, 2003
2,472
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Someone should ask this guy to bake a wedding cake for an inter-racial wedding. I’d be willing to bet large sums of money that his “religion” prohibits that too.
How large a sum? I'll take that bet.

KK
 
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