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Ontario Basic Income Pilot: Good Riddance...

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
11
38
Just catching up are you? Hope you enjoyed your week off.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
Thank god the PC's are shelving this waste of money science project being used by lazy people milking the system.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-taxpayers-shouldnt-be-paying-for-free-rides
So I see you would rather spend more money on crime, health care and pay for generations of poverty as these peoples kids follow their parents path then even TRY to break the cycle of poverty....yup, that is typical Right Wing thinking. Lets not try anything to make things better....even if it saves us money and ESPECIALLY if it even has a HINT of empathy. Lets spend 150m to keep the poor people poor vs 50m to try and lift them up.
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
263
83
So I see you would rather spend more money on crime, health care and pay for generations of poverty as these peoples kids follow their parents path then even TRY to break the cycle of poverty....yup, that is typical Right Wing thinking. Lets not try anything to make things better....even if it saves us money and ESPECIALLY if it even has a HINT of empathy. Lets spend 150m to keep the poor people poor vs 50m to try and lift them up.
Well this wasn't the program to accomplish that.
What is was, was a means for liberals to feel good about themselves while completely letting moochers and lazy people take advantage of the program.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,359
2,273
113
So I see you would rather spend more money on crime, health care and pay for generations of poverty as these peoples kids follow their parents path then even TRY to break the cycle of poverty....yup, that is typical Right Wing thinking. Lets not try anything to make things better....even if it saves us money and ESPECIALLY if it even has a HINT of empathy. Lets spend 150m to keep the poor people poor vs 50m to try and lift them up.
Your plan is a fools plan, based on pie in the sky thinking and wishing on pixie dust
Poverty within society will never go away. There has been poor people since 10 minutes after the first coin was struck. There always has been and alway will be poverty.
Throwing money at poverty does not fix the issue, rather it creates dependants

A province with the monstrous debt level Ont has can not afford to give money away in exchange for not working.
I am still amazed there were those that actually thought this project was possible
Too bad Granny Wynn spent all the funds expanding government & enriching unions

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
80,681
17,857
113
Your plan is a fools plan, based on pie in the sky thinking and wishing on pixie dust
Poverty within society will never go away. There has been poor people since 10 minutes after the first coin was struck. There always has been and alway will be poverty.
Throwing money at poverty does not fix the issue, rather it creates dependants

A province with the monstrous debt level Ont has can not afford to give money away in exchange for not working.
I am still amazed there were those that actually thought this project was possible
Too bad Granny Wynn spent all the funds expanding government & enriching unions

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
Idiotic.

Poverty is much higher in the US where there are fewer social services.
Poverty rates are much lower in the EU countries with higher social services and more socialist policies.

Its really basic and it works.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
Well this wasn't the program to accomplish that.
What is was, was a means for liberals to feel good about themselves while completely letting moochers and lazy people take advantage of the program.

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
No this was a limited pilot plan to see if these goals would be achived and that the streamlining of all the various social programs would create the efficiencies to provide more actual help for people in need. People end up in the gutter for many reasons, sometimes its their fault, sure, I would say it is often their fault. But allowing them to stay in the gutter has a high cost to society. Poor people cost us a LOT of money. The Right Wing just never bothers to do that math because the sound bytes that simply the situation are all they can understand.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
Your plan is a fools plan, based on pie in the sky thinking and wishing on pixie dust
Poverty within society will never go away. There has been poor people since 10 minutes after the first coin was struck. There always has been and alway will be poverty.
Throwing money at poverty does not fix the issue, rather it creates dependants

A province with the monstrous debt level Ont has can not afford to give money away in exchange for not working.
I am still amazed there were those that actually thought this project was possible
Too bad Granny Wynn spent all the funds expanding government & enriching unions

The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
There will always be poor, sure, but to think not helping them has no cost is utterly idiotic. What about child poverty, maybe the cycle can be broken. Saying you can't do anything about it is stupid and lazy, there are greatly varying levels of poverty around the world. Can you explain to me why that is or is it too complicated for your right wing sound byte mind to grasp?

They myth that Ontarios debt levels are absurd is absurd in itself. You cannot compare a Canadian province to a US state, they have vastly differeny mandates. Ontario is growing fact and major investments in infrastructure have to be made. Sure there is the usual graft and boondoggle that goes along with it, but I would rather have over priced infrastructure then 10-12 nuclear carriers killing innocent people abroad.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
Still the Alt right or the conservatives have yet to name a SINGLE WEALTHY COUNTRY without MAJOR SOCIAL PROGRAMS. Liberal and left leaning govts in Canada have delivered HISTORICIALLY HIGH EMPLOYMENT. The Canadian econ is doing GREAT!!! hmmmmmmm as for me personally, my personal net worth hits a new high EVERY MONTH!!! Lets face it, you can call Trudeau all kinds of funny names, but life under the Harpo regime SUCKED!!!
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
11
38
There will always be poor, sure, but to think not helping them has no cost is utterly idiotic. What about child poverty, maybe the cycle can be broken. Saying you can't do anything about it is stupid and lazy, there are greatly varying levels of poverty around the world. Can you explain to me why that is or is it too complicated for your right wing sound byte mind to grasp?
The sky has fallen! Larue is actually right! "Poverty within society will never go away" and he put his finger right on the underlying reason — before he drifted back to the comfort of his ideological straitjacket. "There ha[ve] been poor people since 10 minutes after the first coin was struck." Plain and simple: Poverty is definitional. If someone has more, they're Rich; less, they're Poor. And no guaranteed income/welfare/unemployment insurance/minimum wage/child benefit/…/… can ever change that.

However millions of years ago when we climbed down and started walking, we left the truly selfish apes back in the trees and agreed we'd be better off evolving and sticking together. And every society since has figured out some way to share, if for no other reason than mobs of beggars are inconvenient. And even dead of starvation, there's enough meat on a human to stink up the place. Besides, even the most bereft live human has more potential use than any sick or dying one. So somewhere long before we invented writing, we invented charity and welfare. And we learned long ago — because Larue hasn't been the only one to be right over the millennia — that those good things aren't a cure, because indeed, nothing 'cures' poverty.

What this pilot project was intended to do was provide solid evidence whether having money — the same as if they had paying jobs — would enable the poor to better fend for themselves without welfare, and cut the costly burdens they now place on that whole range of expensive, piecemeal social services, that come with all their costly workers and cross-purposes.

Dougie's promise to consider the evidence, was the only hopeful thing in his pretend platform, but stock-conservative ideology froze his feet. What if the evidence said more poor people did better this way and it saved the province money as well? Can't have that!! Cancel the investigation!!! Don't trouble us with facts! Promise broken.

Dougie ignored Larue's inescapable truth, (this time in Jesus' words) that, "The poor, shall ye always have with you". More to the point he ignored the corollary: Then ye shall always have to do something with, for or about them.

And it'll cost. Always. TANSTAAFL!!!
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
263
83
No this was a limited pilot plan to see if these goals would be achived and that the streamlining of all the various social programs would create the efficiencies to provide more actual help for people in need. People end up in the gutter for many reasons, sometimes its their fault, sure, I would say it is often their fault. But allowing them to stay in the gutter has a high cost to society. Poor people cost us a LOT of money. The Right Wing just never bothers to do that math because the sound bytes that simply the situation are all they can understand.
From the examples in the article, people with employable skills and jobs, using program proves that it was a failure and would continue to be a failure.
No one is against helping those in need.
Everyone should be against bad programs that actually help the lazy and not the ones in need.

The left-wing thinking on helping people usually stops at the feel-good point when announcements are made about how the needy will be helped.
And that's where it stops.

There is no further thought put into whether a program is actually working or not.
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
22,447
1,331
113
The sky has fallen! Larue is actually right! "Poverty within society will never go away" and he put his finger right on the underlying reason — before he drifted back to the comfort of his ideological straitjacket. "There ha[ve] been poor people since 10 minutes after the first coin was struck." Plain and simple: Poverty is definitional. If someone has more, they're Rich; less, they're Poor. And no guaranteed income/welfare/unemployment insurance/minimum wage/child benefit/…/… can ever change that.

However millions of years ago when we climbed down and started walking, we left the truly selfish apes back in the trees and agreed we'd be better off evolving and sticking together. And every society since has figured out some way to share, if for no other reason than mobs of beggars are inconvenient. And even dead of starvation, there's enough meat on a human to stink up the place. Besides, even the most bereft live human has more potential use than any sick or dying one. So somewhere long before we invented writing, we invented charity and welfare. And we learned long ago — because Larue hasn't been the only one to be right over the millennia — that those good things aren't a cure, because indeed, nothing 'cures' poverty.

What this pilot project was intended to do was provide solid evidence whether having money — the same as if they had paying jobs — would enable the poor to better fend for themselves without welfare, and cut the costly burdens they now place on that whole range of expensive, piecemeal social services, that come with all their costly workers and cross-purposes.

Dougie's promise to consider the evidence, was the only hopeful thing in his pretend platform, but stock-conservative ideology froze his feet. What if the evidence said more poor people did better this way and it saved the province money as well? Can't have that!! Cancel the investigation!!! Don't trouble us with facts! Promise broken.

Dougie ignored Larue's inescapable truth, (this time in Jesus' words) that, "The poor, shall ye always have with you". More to the point he ignored the corollary: Then ye shall always have to do something with, for or about them.

And it'll cost. Always. TANSTAAFL!!!
If poor is eventually defined as "less wealthy" that would be wonderful. The key is reducing poverty and especially child poverty. This is a cancer in our society. It IS an emergency and its worth a deficit or a tax hike. This program was to test a POSSIBLE solution.. now we have no data and are back to the old shitty situation. Poor or less rich is not the same as impoverished.
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
263
83
The sky has fallen! Larue is actually right! "Poverty within society will never go away" and he put his finger right on the underlying reason — before he drifted back to the comfort of his ideological straitjacket. "There ha[ve] been poor people since 10 minutes after the first coin was struck." Plain and simple: Poverty is definitional. If someone has more, they're Rich; less, they're Poor. And no guaranteed income/welfare/unemployment insurance/minimum wage/child benefit/…/… can ever change that.

However millions of years ago when we climbed down and started walking, we left the truly selfish apes back in the trees and agreed we'd be better off evolving and sticking together. And every society since has figured out some way to share, if for no other reason than mobs of beggars are inconvenient. And even dead of starvation, there's enough meat on a human to stink up the place. Besides, even the most bereft live human has more potential use than any sick or dying one. So somewhere long before we invented writing, we invented charity and welfare. And we learned long ago — because Larue hasn't been the only one to be right over the millennia — that those good things aren't a cure, because indeed, nothing 'cures' poverty.

What this pilot project was intended to do was provide solid evidence whether having money — the same as if they had paying jobs — would enable the poor to better fend for themselves without welfare, and cut the costly burdens they now place on that whole range of expensive, piecemeal social services, that come with all their costly workers and cross-purposes.

Dougie's promise to consider the evidence, was the only hopeful thing in his pretend platform, but stock-conservative ideology froze his feet. What if the evidence said more poor people did better this way and it saved the province money as well? Can't have that!! Cancel the investigation!!! Don't trouble us with facts! Promise broken.

Dougie ignored Larue's inescapable truth, (this time in Jesus' words) that, "The poor, shall ye always have with you". More to the point he ignored the corollary: Then ye shall always have to do something with, for or about them.

And it'll cost. Always. TANSTAAFL!!!
That's all good pie-in-the-sky stuff...but fact of the matter, as referenced in the article, is that people who didn't need the program were the ones abusing it.
Which in essence renders the science project useless.
Good riddance.
 

Boober69

Well-known member
Feb 23, 2012
6,722
263
83
If poor is eventually defined as "less wealthy" that would be wonderful. The key is reducing poverty and especially child poverty. This is a cancer in our society. It IS an emergency and its worth a deficit or a tax hike. This program was to test a POSSIBLE solution.. now we have no data and are back to the old shitty situation. Poor or less rich is not the same as impoverished.
You mean the possible solution when someone quits their job to use this program because they don't like their job?
Sorry to break your heart but that's what was happening with this program. Obviously it wasn't managed well enough to ensure the proper participants were included.
But that didn't matter to the Liberals because it's not about the actual program...it's about convincing voters that they are going to be cared for.
 

SirWanker

Active member
Apr 6, 2002
1,677
8
38
Agincourt
You mean the possible solution when someone quits their job to use this program because they don't like their job?
Sorry to break your heart but that's what was happening with this program. Obviously it wasn't managed well enough to ensure the proper participants were included.
But that didn't matter to the Liberals because it's not about the actual program...it's about convincing voters that they are going to be cared for.
How about supporting a livable minimum wage so a study like Ontario Basic Income Pilot would not be necessary? By the way, Denmark is a prime example for taking care of it's citizens.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
11
38
That's all good pie-in-the-sky stuff...but fact of the matter, as referenced in the article, is that people who didn't need the program were the ones abusing it.
Which in essence renders the science project useless.
Good riddance.
There are no facts in the matter, Doogie cancelled the pilot before any such things could be determined or discovered. Are you suggesting Government by The Sun is what anyone voted for? Mainstream media? From TORONTO?

You gotta smoke safer stuff.
 

SirWanker

Active member
Apr 6, 2002
1,677
8
38
Agincourt
You mean the possible solution when someone quits their job to use this program because they don't like their job?
Sorry to break your heart but that's what was happening with this program. Obviously it wasn't managed well enough to ensure the proper participants were included.
But that didn't matter to the Liberals because it's not about the actual program...it's about convincing voters that they are going to be cared for.
Then why won't they, the PCs, release the data supporting their basis for terminating the program?
 
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