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Broward County Teachers Caught Indoctrinating Students, Planning Illegal March

SuperCharge

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Jun 11, 2011
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You actually don't see the insanity of the need of armed officers in grade schools to protect students do you? Of promotion of a gun culture where they are considered a solution?

That is the fight. And it's starting to tip.
No I don't. Bank, Airports, Gov buildings all have armed security but not for our prized possession, our kids. When you all realize that criminals don't care about laws, that most school shootings happen in gun free zones, the fact it take the police 10-15 minutes to arrive at a incident, the facts do not support the hyperbole and we all know it. Or at least those of us who can see clearly passed the emotional children's rhetoric. Last week these kids were eating tide pods, this week their experts in gun control. Just stop!

Good luck to them, regardless.
 

Bud Plug

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Aug 17, 2001
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That shows you're missing the message and they need to try harder. These are children. The adults who are supposedly looking after their interests and safety have let them down. Mortally. And repeatedly.

It''s not for the children to say how to fix it, as you point out. It's for adults. People like you.

All the kids are saying is, "Enough talk, get the job done."

Not to put too fine a point on the importance of keeping your kids safe and focussed on the better things, who's to say the next Parklands or Newtown shooter won't go after the adults to give them a taste of what it feels like.
I must admit that I'm not sure what the foolproof solution is to an FBI that doesn't follow up on multiple flags and a deputy who refuses to engage a shooter. The standard solution is to fire those responsible and readdress the correct protocols with both branches of law enforcement.

There is more clear scope to address the mental health issues that relate to the creation of shooters, as I've argued in other threads (pertaining to the failure of de-institutionalized mental health care).

If society were to design its rules around the principle that people won't do their jobs and that treating the mentally ill is impossible, so lets try to arrange things so that there's no job to do and it won't matter if we treat mentally ill individuals, what you would end up with is an unproductive nation of irresponsible morons in positions of public trust and untreated mentally ill. Not the result I care to advocate for.
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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No I don't. Bank, Airports, Gov buildings all have armed security but not for our prized possession, our kids. When you all realize that criminals don't care about laws, that most school shootings happen in gun free zones, the facts do not support the hyperbole and we all know it. Or at least those of us who can see clearly passed the emotional children's rhetoric. Last week these kids were eating tide pods, this week their experts in gun control. Just stop!
The USA is the only nation that considers school shootings to be normalized behavior. It's that simple.

And there is nothing wrong with making this an emotional issue. It is when unappeptable deaths occur.

And the NRA and gun manufacturers have no interest in protecting children. None. Their only goal is the promotion of gun culture to increase sales. That's it.

Placing the 2nd amendment above the safety of children does not protect them.

Its not hyperbole to state you want to ban a product that when used correctly for its sole purpose someone dies. That's what most guns are. Built and designed to kill people. En masse.

The tired arguments of the gun lobby are now starting to be taken down. More to follow. Just watch.
 

Butler1000

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Lawn darts resulted in four deaths and were banned.

Their have been 239 school shooting deaths THIS year

Nuff said.
 

SuperCharge

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Lawn darts resulted in four deaths and were banned.

Their have been 239 school shooting deaths THIS year

Nuff said.
Kids die everyday on their bikes going to school because they aren't required to wear a bike helmet in most states.

Can u cite your source for fatalities.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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I just can't fathom why we should care at all about the gun control views of teenagers. ...
Interesting. The NRA and their parrots say 18 year olds are too immature to have formed valid viewpoints but at the same time say 18 years is old enough to own guns.

I think you're just afraid that these same teens are the next wave of voters.
 

basketcase

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If you’re looking for someone to blame, you can start with the cowards of broward county who were given dozens of calls on this kid....
Thanks to the NRA/Gun Lobby, there was nothing the police could do about his arsenal. At best they could get a court order for him to take his meds but there was nothing they could do to take away his guns.
 

basketcase

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I'm not seeing anything they haven't already done before. Marches, Marches, Marches. You should talk to the son of the security guard who shot the school shooter yesterday, he's proud of his father and love his 2A. ...
Or the kid hit by fragments when his teacher fired his gun in class.
 

basketcase

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Kids die everyday on their bikes going to school because they aren't required to wear a bike helmet in most states.

Can u cite your source for fatalities.
Can u cite your source for your claim in the other thread that guns save more lives than they take?
 

SuperCharge

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Jun 11, 2011
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Can u cite your source for your claim in the other thread that guns save more lives than they take?
Defensive Use of Guns

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010).

On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004).

https://www.nap.edu/read/18319/chapter/3#16

How many ppl are murdered annually by firearms? Approx 12K
 

SuperCharge

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Thanks to the NRA/Gun Lobby, there was nothing the police could do about his arsenal. At best they could get a court order for him to take his meds but there was nothing they could do to take away his guns.
The coward had ONE job, to protect those kids. They FAILED! Which is why the coward was fired. There is NO excuse for that, none!
 

Bud Plug

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Interesting. The NRA and their parrots say 18 year olds are too immature to have formed valid viewpoints but at the same time say 18 years is old enough to own guns.

I think you're just afraid that these same teens are the next wave of voters.
There's nothing problematic about that reasoning. We assess that 5 years olds are mature enough to start going to school, but we don't hold a vote among those kids. Likewise, we decided that 16 is enough to drive, but we didn't hold a plebiscite of 16 year olds to decide that either.

I am afraid of stupid people taking over the reins of power in society, but I'm not persuaded yet that this group of teenagers won't grow up and become smarter, just like every generation of teenagers before them.

Are you getting your views from 18 year olds, or feeling buttressed in your views because some 18 year olds agree with you?
 

Butler1000

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There's nothing problematic about that reasoning. We assess that 5 years olds are mature enough to start going to school, but we don't hold a vote among those kids. Likewise, we decided that 16 is enough to drive, but we didn't hold a plebiscite of 16 year olds to decide that either.

I am afraid of stupid people taking over the reins of power in society, but I'm not persuaded yet that this group of teenagers won't grow up and become smarter, just like every generation of teenagers before them.

Are you getting your views from 18 year olds, or feeling buttressed in your views because some 18 year olds agree with you?
The point is simple. If you are going to state at 18 a person is old enough to own a gun and be responsible with it then at the least someone 18 should also be able to express an opposing opinion and be taken seriously.

The fact they think 18 is good to own and be responsible with a firearm but not a beer is laughable.
 

Bud Plug

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The point is simple. If you are going to state at 18 a person is old enough to own a gun and be responsible with it then at the least someone 18 should also be able to express an opposing opinion and be taken seriously.

The fact they think 18 is good to own and be responsible with a firearm but not a beer is laughable.
The right of 18 year olds to speak and demonstrate is not a right for such speech to be taken seriously any more than it is a right of NAMBLA to speak and be taken seriously. The number of 18 year olds who, in spite of their lack of experience and education, have something to say that adds to the public discourse that is already taking place is infinitesimally small. And frankly, teenagers who are that smart are off in a basement somewhere inventing the next tech boom (a la Bill Gates), not spending their time trying to get a future job as a journalist, community organizer, or politician by raising their public profile through interviews on TV.

And the difference between beer and guns is that beer is not a constitutional right. It's kind of logically difficult to declare 18 year olds to be full citizens, with all the rights and obligations of citizenry, and then deny them a constitutional right.
 

Butler1000

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The right of 18 year olds to speak and demonstrate is not a right for such speech to be taken seriously any more than it is a right of NAMBLA to speak and be taken seriously. The number of 18 year olds who, in spite of their lack of experience and education, have something to say that adds to the public discourse that is already taking place is infinitesimally small. And frankly, teenagers who are that smart are off in a basement somewhere inventing the next tech boom (a la Bill Gates), not spending their time trying to get a future job as a journalist, community organizer, or politician by raising their public profile through interviews on TV.

And the difference between beer and guns is that beer is not a constitutional right. It's kind of logically difficult to declare 18 year olds to be full citizens, with all the rights and obligations of citizenry, and then deny them a constitutional right.
Point being the assumption that an 18 year old is mature enough for gun ownership but not to drink or have a good opinion is laughable.

It really is. Your argument is a nice dance but the hypocrisy is amazing.

If you are going to trust them to vote at 18 then they should have a political opinion taken seriously and not be dismissed solely on age.

And just for the record amendments can be appealed. They are not permanent to the Constitution. By very virtue of the concept of amendments means they can be added or removed by the will of the people.

And that is where this fight is headed. First the NRA. Then eventually this.
 

Bud Plug

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Point being the assumption that an 18 year old is mature enough for gun ownership but not to drink or have a good opinion is laughable.

It really is. Your argument is a nice dance but the hypocrisy is amazing.

If you are going to trust them to vote at 18 then they should have a political opinion taken seriously and not be dismissed solely on age.

And just for the record amendments can be appealed. They are not permanent to the Constitution. By very virtue of the concept of amendments means they can be added or removed by the will of the people.

And that is where this fight is headed. First the NRA. Then eventually this.
The constitutional distinction between gun ownership and drinking is a clear one. I think what you are saying, inferentially, is that you wouldn't have designed a constitution that ensured that 18 year old citizens would have the same right to bear arms as older citizens (I'm not sure whether you think the age should be older, or that there should not be a right to own guns at all). The design of constitutions is a certainly a debatable topic, and certainly many different approaches to the subject have been implemented around the world. However, I think what could be said for the American constitution is that, under it, the US has become the most prosperous and influential nation in the world in a relatively short period of time. Places a large onus on anyone who wants to argue with success.

Teenagers can vote at 18 because that is one of the rights of citizens. However, the political influence of 18 year old votes is proportionately insignificant (and that would be true even if they actually went out to vote, which they generally don't). 18 year old votes don't dictate public policy. The vast majority of voters have a significant amount of life experience (and many have significantly more education) to inform their political views, and that vast majority exercises the vast majority of political influence.

I'm not dismissive of teenage views because of age, but rather because of the lack of experience, wisdom, and education that youth entails. On the other end of the spectrum, I'm dismissive of past-due milk as well, not because of age, but because of what that age entails.

Amendments can be removed - with great difficulty, by purposeful design. If 18 year olds think they can influence enough citizens to support repeal of the 2nd amendment, first they'll have to prove why they possess some unique insight that makes their view persuasive. Being a shooting victim (or near victim) does not make you an expert in policing or public safety. It would likely engender strong feelings about the subject, but not necessarily strong thoughts.
 

basketcase

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The coward had ONE job, to protect those kids. They FAILED! Which is why the coward was fired. There is NO excuse for that, none!
Which has nothing to do with your comment about the police not acting on the calls about the kid. Fact is there was nothing the police could have done to take away his guns and they couldn't lock him up because he hadn't committed a crime yet.

Of course if the NRA wasn't blocking any laws about guns, there easily could have been a law to remove his guns because of his mental health issues.
 

basketcase

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There's nothing problematic about that reasoning. ...
Really? Only the NRA would say 18 is responsible enough to own guns but not to discuss gun laws.

Sadly stupid people took over the reins of the US long ago and they proved it again when they elected Trump. They are getting smarter though because they are waking up to how many politicians are bought and paid for by the NRA.
 
Ashley Madison
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