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Doug Ford - no layoffs and 6B in savings!!!

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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So in her five years Wynne has more than made up for the job-losses in manufacturing by hiring all the factory hands laid-off in the decade and a half since 2003 and more, is that it? And it didn't make headlines, nor did she boast about it?

Sounds pretty unlikely to me. I said why above, and this version makes the 360,000 even less believable. If Macleans cited the actual StatsCan report so we could see it for ourselves, maybe. But they didn't. Did you find it? I certainly haven't found anything like it. Best so far is that Hudak vs. Wynne number of a swivel service of less than 100,000, and that is StatsCan.
The key phrase in captain kirk's quote from Macleans is 'government driven', which the captain uses to pretend its actually government jobs.
The same article notes what really screwed Ontario's economy, and it wasn't the liberals.
The party ended, alas, with breathtaking abruptness. By mid-2007, spiking oil prices had driven up the value of the loonie, removing a cost advantage Ontario factories had long enjoyed over their U.S. competitors. With the 2008 financial crisis, U.S. demand for Canadian non-energy products cratered—a decline that deepened over the next few years as oil soared again to US$100 per barrel.
They also note Wynne's approach to the problem.
. But Dimitry Anastakis, an economic historian at Trent University in Peterborough, Ont., believes the situation is dire enough that the government has to act. And if it’s going to act, he says, it makes sense to go all-in. “When you lose that manufacturing base and the technology that comes with it, you have to do something,” he says. “Wynne is focusing on some green tech, some information technology and some services. This is a slow-motion attempt to ratchet the economy into the 21st century. Whether it’s going to be a success is a completely different story.”
So the question becomes what would a Ford government do for the same problem?
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
69,896
68,400
113
According to Statistics Canada, the province’s manufacturing sector has shed some 347,000 workers since 2003, when the Liberals took office under Dalton McGuinty. During the same period, the number employed in government-driven sectors like health care, social assistance and educational services has risen by 368,000, while provincial debt has soared to $307 billion.
JTK, all across the developed world manufacturing sector jobs are being lost. At the same time, service sector jobs - like the "government sector driven" jobs you vaguely mention - are being created.

Bet the same types of stats are common across Europe and north America.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
170
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Do you want to eat food from an industry that is inadequately governed?
Give your head a shake. We're a million miles away from "inadequately governed."

Meanwhile, on Friday evening's broadcast of The Agenda with Steve Paikin, there was an interview with Doug Ford. During the interview, they discussed the fact that the Ministry of Health had five assistant deputy ministers when Mike Harris was premier. It now has 25 assistant deputy ministers.

There's no possible way anyone can believe that enormous expansion in bureaucracy at the most senior level has led to anything remotely close to a corresponding increase in the quality of care in Ontario.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
24,495
11
38
The key phrase in captain kirk's quote from Macleans is 'government driven', which the captain uses to pretend its actually government jobs.
The same article notes what really screwed Ontario's economy, and it wasn't the liberals.

They also note Wynne's approach to the problem.

So the question becomes what would a Ford government do for the same problem?
You're right that I hadn't properly registered that circumlocution in the Macleans quote, because I was looking for the still-missing source of the figure. Of course it's sick people that drive health costs, not government and just across the water to the south health workers aren't even 'public-sector' hires let alone government ones. Much the same with schools and social assistance.

In any case, no one has offered a source for the numbers in Macleans and I cannot see how such massive hiring month after month — 7,000 new jobs in Ontario alone each and every — year after year wouldn't have made the news. Just doubling the swivel service payroll in the first year yet magically reducing the deficit would been unforgettable.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,069
1
0
Creating a voting sector,... one vote at a time

JTK, all across the developed world manufacturing sector jobs are being lost. At the same time, service sector jobs - like the "government sector driven" jobs you vaguely mention - are being created.

Bet the same types of stats are common across Europe and north America.
,..."service sector jobs - like the "government sector driven" jobs you vaguely mention - are being created",... whether they are justified or not.

To secure a certain voting sector,... I guess one could say that is justified.

I'm sure,... "the same types of stats are common" with any government trying to stay in power.

To state that when manufacturing jobs are lost,... all one has to do is "create public sector ones",... is s definite sign of a bankrupt thought process.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
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Attrition, zero increases, re-rating some positions & pushing benefit costs including pensions onto the employees.
$ 6 B in four years is easily doable.

The province can not sustain the stupidity of the last 15 years.
It has to be done or the hard crash down the road will be far worse for public employees.

At least under Fords plan they get to continue earning a paycheck.

It may be too late already if rates start to move up quickly
Agreed.

Ontario is now THEE most indebted sub sovereign government in the WORLD. Simply not sustainable.

If I was Premier, I would let retirement and attrition reduce the size of the civil service until it returned to a correct level. Only key positions would be replaced if they were so affected.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
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Do be picking on Moviefan fuji, a little E-Coli is good for the digestive system - gets the juices flowing.

And if diesel is as insignificant as Tiberius claims, why is VW being taken to the woodshed over their emission standards? Clean diesel, I knew it was a hoax. The Economist had egg on its face for buying into the scam.
The new locomotives that GO Transit uses are Tier 4 locomotives. They are the cleanest diesel locomotives in the world and a 12 car train can move 12 x 150 passengers = 1800 people. If you break the pollution down per rider, it's infinitesimally small. And as far as it goes, do you think that electrification is some sort of get out of jail free card? That there is no impact on the environment when we generate electricity? All you do is move the pollution to a different location and make it inefficient having to transmit the electricity.

For more information on the Tier 4 locomotive, go here:

https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/loco.php

I will save you the trouble and you can skip right down to Table 4. Note the emission comparison between Tier 1, which was in 2004 verses 2015. FYI, NOX and HC are the ones you should be concerned about.

I maintain that with Tier 4 locomotives, there is no justification for spending 5 billion dollars to electrify the GO Transit railway corridors. None whatsoever. More pollution, hugely more, will be generated by 50 cars driving down the street.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
26,135
6,340
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Room 112
Ontario is an economic disaster, we might as well be in Europe for crissakes. This is what 14 years of Liberal policies will do to a province. The administrations of McGuinty and Wynne have created a low growth, high taxed, debt riddled jurisdiction. They did nothing of significance to tackle the issues of low productivity and lagging innovation that have plagued us for years. Instead they bloated the bureaucracy far beyond the rate of GDP growth and inflation. Gave us astronomical energy prices. And squandered billions of dollars on boondoggles - eHealth, Ornge, gas plant cancellations, green energy etc.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
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The key phrase in captain kirk's quote from Macleans is 'government driven', which the captain uses to pretend its actually government jobs.
The same article notes what really screwed Ontario's economy, and it wasn't the liberals.
Government Driven are jobs that are paid for either directly or indirectly by the Government of Ontario. End result is the same, it comes out of the taxes that the good people of Ontario pay.

See, in case you are not aware, Ontario dreamed up these things called "Government Agencies". These are organizations that while they may not be the Ontario Ministry of Whatever, they are paid for by the Government.

For Example,

Metrolinx = An Agency of the Government of Ontario
Infrastructure Ontario = An Agency of the Government of Ontario
Ontario Centres of Excellence
Trillium Foundation
MARS

Here's a link to an enormous list of Agencies of the Government of Ontario.

The list goes on and on.

It's simply creative accounting to confuse people as to who pays the bills.

Teachers, nurses, doctors, university personnel, yes, you absolutely need them, but at the end of the day, the Government of Ontario pays for them and the fact REMAINS, that the liberals only bright idea to help the Ontario economy is to add more government jobs.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
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Ontario is an economic disaster, we might as well be in Europe for crissakes. This is what 14 years of Liberal policies will do to a province. The administrations of McGuinty and Wynne have created a low growth, high taxed, debt riddled jurisdiction. They did nothing of significance to tackle the issues of low productivity and lagging innovation that have plagued us for years. Instead they bloated the bureaucracy far beyond the rate of GDP growth and inflation. Gave us astronomical energy prices. And squandered billions of dollars on boondoggles - eHealth, Ornge, gas plant cancellations, green energy etc.
You know, sometimes, I think you're from a different planet. And other times, you hit the nail right on the head.

You nailed it with this statement.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
5,556
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VANCOUVER, B.C. – Ontario’s economy will see moderate growth into 2020, with support from below normal interest rates, firmer U.S. growth, a low dollar, high population growth, and a pickup in business investment and government capital spending, according to the latest forecast from Central 1 Credit Union (Central 1).

Growth over the next three years will be slightly slower than in 2017, due to a decrease in consumer and residential spending, but the provincial economy will remain robust overall.

“In 2018, we expect real gross domestic product (GDP) growth to slow to about 2.5 per cent from 2.8 per cent in 2017,” said Helmut Pastrick, Central 1’s Chief Economist. In 2019 and 2020, real GDP will come in at 2.4 per and 2.3 per cent, respectively.

This past year, key economic indicators for the province were mostly positive. Ontario saw employment up 1.7 per cent, unemployment below six per cent, and wages and salaries up 3.7 per cent in 2017. The impact of minimum wage increase – which will be rising to $14.00 on January 1, 2018 from $11.60 and rising again to $15.00 on January 1, 2019 – remains to be seen. Job growth is likely to slow slightly in 2018, while the unemployment rate slides lower.

Population growth through 2020 is expected to be the best three-year performance since the turn of the century, which will have a considerable impact on labour and housing markets.

Housing sales will be lower in 2018 versus 2017 due to tighter mortgage credit conditions and deteriorating affordability, but Central 1 doesn’t expect a crash any time soon.

“A housing market crash is unlikely without a global economic recession or geopolitical crisis – which is how housing cycles usually end – but nothing points to such an event within the next three years,” Pastrick said.

Without a recession, the most likely cycle-ending scenario would be a gradual softening caused by dwindling affordability and tighter credit restrictions. “The soft-landing scenario would take years to unfold, while the recession scenario could occur suddenly,” Pastrick said.

Uncertainty around the future of the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) is a potential threat to Ontario’s economy. If, for example, the U.S. decides to walk away from NAFTA entirely, the province’s manufacturing sector, and the economy as a whole, would suffer.

Highlights from the report:

Healthy economic growth expected through 2020, despite slowing slightly
Central 1 predicts job growth of 1.5 per cent and unemployment at 5.9 per cent in 2018
Significant population growth ahead, with substantial impacts on labour and housing markets
NAFTA outcome could have major implications for manufacturing and provincial economy
Housing market expected to hold up, a crash not likely
Global economic recession, financial crisis, or geopolitical crisis event pose largest risks to Ontario economy

https://www.central1.com/news/ontar...pansion-2020-says-central-1-economic-forecast

Again total BS by the right wingers who always get their facts wrong. If Ontario's economy suffers, it is as a result of NAFTA. But that is because Trump is the biggest enemy of Canada at the moment. All he wants to do is destroy Canada and it's economy. Yet this Trumptard cult followers cannot even fathom what this moron is all about.
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
170
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If Ontario's economy suffers, it is as a result of NAFTA. But that is because Trump is the biggest enemy of Canada at the moment. All he wants to do is destroy Canada and it's economy. Yet this Trumptard cult followers cannot even fathom what this moron is all about.
Yet another thread about Ontario politics where you try to pivot to a debate about Trump.

It's too bad for you that such tactics aren't going to help Wynne. Nor is anyone going to blame Trump for Ontario's green energy act, which is at the heart of much of Wynne's dismal approval ratings and was introduced years before Trump assumed office.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
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JTK, all across the developed world manufacturing sector jobs are being lost. At the same time, service sector jobs - like the "government sector driven" jobs you vaguely mention - are being created.

Bet the same types of stats are common across Europe and north America.
There's only one problem with your statement. Well, actually several, but the biggest is the most obvious.

Government jobs do not generate wealth. They spend wealth. Government jobs do not add value, they take value generated by the private sector and disperse it so that it benefits the greater population as a whole. It was all well and good when the mines and mills and factories and the private sector were all generating wealth, Ontario could afford to have an expansive civil service (though truth be told, the civil service was kept in check 20 and more years ago). While I will admit that government jobs are catalysts to private sector (as a society, we need teachers, doctors, engineers, roads, bridges, railways, and the things that government is supposed to be responsible for) and are of vital importance, the fact is that unless the private sector is generating wealth by adding value, then we can't assume that by adding government jobs that we will solve the problems that we as a society face.

As far as your statement that we in Canada are no different than the US or Europe in losing manufacturing jobs, I would disagree.

Example. Germany. Germany is a manufacturing powerhouse. They take a pound of steel that you can buy for 50 cents and turn it into a BMW for 50,000 dollars (metaphorically speaking). And yet German labour is some of the most expensive, if not thee most expensive labour on the planet. How do they do it? I will tell you, they don't do it by bloating the size of their government, they do it by having some of the best educational systems in the entire world. This is where Canada truly falls short. Our education system has been dumbed down to the point where kids know all about gender identities and inclusion and trigger words, but they can't do basic math and science is too hard. We are teaching our kids the wrong things frankly because we want them to think that they live in an inclusive world. Meanwhile, half of europe and all of Asia is leaving us in their collective rear view mirrors.

As far as manufacturing goes, there is more manufacturing being done right now in the world than ever before in the history of the planet. Canada and to a lesser extent the USA are not part of this because as K Douglas states, we have not improved productivity, our education has become a laughing stock, and our government (at both provincial and especially the federal level) do not encourage (or set in place) the necessary environment to encourage innovation, research, and development. Example, Justin's recent budget mentioned the word "gender" 357 times and is more aimed at giving away billions of dollars to the aboriginal community for them to squander away and not even to have to show the receipts. And if you ever wanted an example of how the government can fuck up the day by just writing blank cheques, look no further than the aboriginal communities across Canada and the abject waste that goes on there and how it has done NOTHING except make the problem worse.

Bottom line, more government jobs will not make Ontario a better place to live. A better and more prosperous private sector will.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
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Yet another thread about Ontario politics where you try to pivot to a debate about Trump.

It's too bad for you that such tactics aren't going to help Wynne. Nor is anyone going to blame Trump for Ontario's green energy act, which is at the heart of much of Wynne's dismal approval ratings and was introduced years before Trump assumed office.
Read the article as it debunked the notion that the economy is doing poorly. Canadians from other provinces move to Ontario as the jobs are there. The only time that the article clearly stated, that the economy may suffer is because of NAFTA. So it is related to Trump. I know that you love that guy, but he is the one that will hurt Canada and his own States that trade with Canada and Ontario in particular. Related to the thread, so not "pivoting" as you claim. Even if Ford comes in and the Ontario suffers as a result of NAFTA, I know that you will not blame Ford, or Trump, but off course the "former Wynn Government" and the present "Trudeau Federal Government". That is what your politics is all about.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,157
2,147
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Debt is high, but Ontario doesn't spend as much as other provinces.
The real story is not about taxes but about federal transfers that have hurt Ontario.
What those numbers say is that Ontario is spending less on services then most provinces.

It is the responsibility of the provincial government to manage the finances
Blaming Ottawa is not managing
Saying you are better / worse than some other province is not managing.

A big part of managing is not leaving a mess for future generations
The Ont liberals have created a ticking debt time bomb which will be a huge problem for the next 30 + years assuming we act by reducing spending aggressively now

The lunatic left has spent more than it has taken in for the past decade & that is unsustainable

When interest rates normalize the province will have over $10 B in additional interests payments & interest costs will be equal to the education budget
This is going to occur when health care demand sky rockets & when there are some serious questions about the quality of Ontario education system

Only an idiot or a damn liar would think Ont is doing OK
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
79,728
17,566
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Look moron
Its not worth responding to posts that start with insults.

Ford represents the populists and his record with his brother totally fucking over the transit file in this city shows that he backs totally irresponsible policies to try to get elected.
Whatever their results.

Suggesting that the team that brought you the $3 billion subway stop is going to do better with the economy or budget is what you might call 'moronic'.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
113
his record with his brother totally fucking over the transit file in this city shows that he backs totally irresponsible policies to try to get elected.
Whatever their results.

Suggesting that the team that brought you the $3 billion subway stop is going to do better with the economy or budget is what you might call 'moronic'.
Well, Ford wanted 3 subway stops actually in Scarborough.

And say what you want, he's getting something built.

I was never a Rob Ford fan. I wanted John Tory to run and win. (And he did, and I'm just not impressed with the guy.)

But ask yourself, in terms of transit, what has John Tory built?

He's been in there 3.5 years and he's accomplished 0

At least Ford got a subway built. That's something. And some day, it will need to go to Scarborough Town Centre and have more stops added.

Tory has sweet fuck all to all to his credit. He keeps braying away about "smart track", but all that is is running transit at grade in existing railway corridors and it's been studied to death over the last 20 or 30 years and the conclusions then are the same as the conclusions now - it's not practical and the railways will never allow it.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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At least Ford got a subway built. .
No, there is no subway yet.
No shovel in the ground and no final tab on how much it'll cost.

All we know for sure is that he killed a fully funded, wouldn't have cost the city a cent, properly designed, plan from Miller.

We have no subway, all we have to show for it is a 30 year tax increase from Ford.
 

bver_hunter

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2005
27,331
5,556
113
No, there is no subway yet.
No shovel in the ground and no final tab on how much it'll cost.

All we know for sure is that he killed a fully funded, wouldn't have cost the city a cent, properly designed, plan from Miller.

We have no subway, all we have to show for it is a 30 year tax increase from Ford.
Should not post any facts that the right wingers waste taxpayers money. It is always considered by them to be "justified"!!
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
23,932
3,679
113
No, there is no subway yet.
No shovel in the ground and no final tab on how much it'll cost.

All we know for sure is that he killed a fully funded, wouldn't have cost the city a cent, properly designed, plan from Miller.

We have no subway, all we have to show for it is a 30 year tax increase from Ford.
Built was the wrong choice of words.

Approved would be a better word.

Unless council reverses its decision (which they have said they will not), then it will get built.

It blows my mind how long it takes to do anything these days. If the government in 1867 had moved at this pace, the CPR would still be in the planning stages.
 
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