Venting about Olympic Men's Ice Hockey

Aardvark154 · Feb 24, 2018

It seems absolutely idiotic to me that the NHL has cost either Canada or the U.S.A. an Olympic Gold Medal, due to commercial greed -- as if they couldn't start the season two weeks early or something of the sort.

Likewise Russia is under suspension for their rampant cheating, and yet what do we have the Russians in the Gold medal Men's Ice Hockey game and the Gold and Silver medalists in women's figure skating.

sempel · Feb 24, 2018

Aardvark154 said:
It seems absolutely idiotic to me that the NFL has cost either Canada or the U.S.A. an Olympic Gold Medal, due to commercial greed -- as if they couldn't start the season two weeks early or something of the sort.

Likewise Russia is under suspension for their rampant cheating, and yet what do we have the Russians in the Gold medal Men's Ice Hockey game and the Gold and Silver medalists in women's figure skating.

NHL I think is what you meant. It wasn't necessarily greed but also economics. The NHL has to take a two week hiatus. No biggie as I doubt they'd shorten the season so the revenue should be about the same. The issue was who bears the cost of transport and insurance. Let me ask you - if you are an NHL owner and another organization wants to "rent" your players for a couple of weeks and there's a chance for injury, do you think it makes sense that you have to cover the costs? The owners voted no after the IIHF tried to make them pay the costs. A stupid move with the obvious results. I'm thinking the KHL or other leagues could also have opted out too but didn't - don't know what the story is there.

Canada had plenty of chances in both games (men and women) and were the masters of their own fate. I'm not a fan of the shootout being used as a decider but if a team wants to avoid that, win the game beforehand.

Occasionally · Feb 24, 2018

I'm sure owners and the NHL could cover insurance costs. The Russian and Euro leagues allow their players to play, so the NHL could too. But nobody wanted to foot the bill.

It all came down to money.

Injuries are just a fake reason to try to make the point. Kind of like unions saying health and safety are the most important bargaining points, when in reality it all comes down to wages and benefits.

In international games, there's hardly any injuries to begin with. International hockey is higher tempo, less checking, zero fighting, and a lot less grunt work in the corners with players all ramming each other. It's a very free flowing game, where players are trying win with speed and skill than hard hitting, ramming goalies, and enforcers. And due to this higher skill game, almost all of the players are higher skill players as opposed to signing up 3rd and 4th line grinders.

Scheduling is another fake reason. They've adjusted schedules before and nobody seemed to care. Teams and fans adjust. I've never heard a fan complain about condensed NHL schedules when it's an Olympic year.

sempel · Feb 24, 2018

Occasionally said:
I'm sure owners and the NHL could cover insurance costs. The Russian and Euro leagues allow their players to play, so the NHL could too. But nobody wanted to foot the bill.

It all came down to money.

Injuries are just a fake reason to try to make the point. Kind of like unions saying health and safety are the most important bargaining points, when in reality it all comes down to wages and benefits.

In international games, there's hardly any injuries to begin with. International hockey is higher tempo, less checking, zero fighting, and a lot less grunt work in the corners with players all ramming each other. It's a very free flowing game, where players are trying win with speed and skill than hard hitting, ramming goalies, and enforcers. And due to this higher skill game, almost all of the players are higher skill players as opposed to signing up 3rd and 4th line grinders.

Scheduling is another fake reason. They've adjusted schedules before and nobody seemed to care. Teams and fans adjust. I've never heard a fan complain about condensed NHL schedules when it's an Olympic year.

There's a variety of ways to get injured besides actual game play. And some injuries during game play are the result of general play or mishap versus fighting/checking/hard play. IIHF paid before so why the change in policy?

The other thing is most of the Olympics is overnight. Some starts at 8pm but most of it would not impact TV numbers which may also have been a factor. If you don't expect a decline in viewership/attendance, why take a break?

Occasionally · Feb 24, 2018

sempel said:
There's a variety of ways to get injured besides actual game play. And some injuries during game play are the result of general play or mishap versus fighting/checking/hard play. IIHF paid before so why the change in policy?

The other thing is most of the Olympics is overnight. Some starts at 8pm but most of it would not impact TV numbers which may also have been a factor. If you don't expect a decline in viewership/attendance, why take a break?

Who knows. But the end of the day, they feel like the NHL - the highest level and richest hockey league in the world - can foot the insurance bills themselves.

On one hand, Bettman and gang like to promote the NHL is stronger than ever with record revenue, team expansion and player salaries are highest it's ever been.

So if the league is full of money, they can pay fees themselves.

And besides, how many NHL players would even participate? 80 out of 700? And the league or owners can't cover this?

I just Googled it and the IOC paid $7M US to cover insurance in 2014 Olympics. So all this came down to less than $10M (assuming insurance fees crept up). So all the owners and league can't find let's say..... $8M?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_at_the_Olympic_Games

A major sticking point over NHL participation has been the insurance of players; for the 2014 Winter Olympics, the IOC paid around US$7 million to insure NHL players participating in the Games. In April 2016, the IOC announced that beginning in 2018, it would no longer cover accommodations, insurance, or travel for NHL players in the Olympics, prompting the IIHF to ask for support from national ice hockey associations and National Olympic Committees to help cover costs; Matti Nurminen of the Finnish Ice Hockey Association argued that it was the responsibility of the event's organizer to cover costs, and that "In our opinion, the same party should pay the bills, and that’s not us. All the countries replied to the IIHF that they are not willing to pay for the insurance or the travel or any of the other expenses that are related to having the NHL players participate in Pyeongchang." The New York Times felt that the removal of this financial support would put NHL participation at Pyeongchang in jeopardy, noting the already-strenuous relationship between the NHL and the IOC; Gary Bettman noted that the NHL does not profit from their presence, adding that "in fact, we kind of disappear for two weeks because historically the IOC hasn't even let us join in promoting our participation in the Olympics."[140]

Aardvark154 · Feb 25, 2018

So who wins the Olympic Gold Medal --- the supposedly banned Russians. ~~~What a punishment we won't play your national anthem -- "please, Br'er Fox, don't fling me in that brier-patch."

sempel · Feb 25, 2018

Occasionally said:
Who knows. But the end of the day, they feel like the NHL - the highest level and richest hockey league in the world - can foot the insurance bills themselves.

On one hand, Bettman and gang like to promote the NHL is stronger than ever with record revenue, team expansion and player salaries are highest it's ever been.

So if the league is full of money, they can pay fees themselves.

And besides, how many NHL players would even participate? 80 out of 700? And the league or owners can't cover this?

I just Googled it and the IOC paid $7M US to cover insurance in 2014 Olympics. So all this came down to less than $10M (assuming insurance fees crept up). So all the owners and league can't find let's say..... $8M?

It's a matter of principle, not economics, because yes, $8M from a league that takes in tons of money can easily afford to pay. So the question is should they, and they think no. I agree. It's not just about being able to afford paying because I'm sure Bill Gates doesn't pay for every meal just because he's the richest guy eating at the table.

What bothers me in the case of the men's hockey is there is zero control of caliber. Russia was expected to win because most of its players are ex NHL'ers. Canada had a few NHL'ers too while other countries don't, so the playing field isn't level. Even with the NHL, you have Canada, Russia, and the US where all players are NHL'ers while other countries have none. Since all the competitors don't regularly compete with each other, it's not very fair whereas in other sports, they do. This argument also applies to basketball.

shack · Feb 25, 2018

sempel said:
What bothers me in the case of the men's hockey is there is zero control of caliber. Russia was expected to win because most of its players are ex NHL'ers. Canada had a few NHL'ers too while other countries don't, so the playing field isn't level. Even with the NHL, you have Canada, Russia, and the US where all players are NHL'ers while other countries have none. Since all the competitors don't regularly compete with each other, it's not very fair whereas in other sports, they do. This argument also applies to basketball.

Gotta disagree with you. There is a reason the other countries don't have NHLers. It is because they don't develop goo enough players.

Is it unfair to Canada that we don't win biathlon because the European countries have more world class athletes in it? There are unfair advantages in every sport due the popularity or lack thereof in particular countries.

Gibbons#1 · Feb 25, 2018

Soccer teams regularly take international breaks and let their Players fly all over the world for international games. Some teams also have to let their African players go for a few weeks mid season for the African cup. It’s acceted and normal, players should want to represent their country.

The fact that the NHL owners wouldn’t let their players go represent their country 1 time in 4 years for the biggest hockey tournament makes them greedy slimy scumbags, there’s no other explanation, and no one should be making excuses for them.

I don’t watch NHL anymore and will continite my boycott.

sempel · Feb 25, 2018

shack said:
Gotta disagree with you. There is a reason the other countries don't have NHLers. It is because they don't develop goo enough players.

Is it unfair to Canada that we don't win biathlon because the European countries have more world class athletes in it? There are unfair advantages in every sport due the popularity or lack thereof in particular countries.

To me, the unfairness stems from the fact that these players don't play each other outside the context of the Olympics. Canada doesn't win biathlon because yes, it's popular in other countries and the athletes probably earn a lot in those sports (perhaps enough to do it FT). But Canadians still compete with them every winter and have the opportunity to train in other countries. A non-NHL'er cannot enter the NHL for hockey training purposes.

For ice dance, a bunch of teams from all over the world go to one place in Montreal. Brian Orser is the coach for a dozen figure skaters, men and women. In other words, there are ways of making the playing field somewhat level. Not the case with hockey, basketball, or any other sport where some athletes participate in an elite league while others don't.

jcpro · Feb 25, 2018

Gibbons#1 said:
Soccer teams regularly take international breaks and let their Players fly all over the world for international games. Some teams also have to let their African players go for a few weeks mid season for the African cup. It’s acceted and normal, players should want to represent their country.

The fact that the NHL owners wouldn’t let their players go represent their country 1 time in 4 years for the biggest hockey tournament makes them greedy slimy scumbags, there’s no other explanation, and no one should be making excuses for them.

I don’t watch NHL anymore and will continite my boycott.

Don't put it all on the owners and the league. I, personally, put the most blame on the players. What would the owners do to stop Crosby or McDavid or any other top Canadian talent? Fire them? Suspend them for the playoffs? Simply, they behaved like the good corporate employees that they are. I can just see the leagues in Europe trying to stop the soccer stars from representing their countries. As corrupt as soccer is, the leagues would be laughed right out of the conversation. I have a lot less respect for our "stars", that's for sure. I was sure that they would've at least made a stand.

Kawailuvr · Feb 25, 2018

It’s just a game bro ...

shack · Feb 25, 2018

jcpro said:
Don't put it all on the owners and the league. I, personally, put the most blame on the players. What would the owners do to stop Crosby or McDavid or any other top Canadian talent? Fire them?

It would be called breach of contract.

The biggest stars may get away with it, but I am sure that there are a lot of contracts the owners would like to dump if given the chance. My guess is that a bunch of the players (the ones not playing up to their contracts but would still make their national teams) would not want to risk the nest egg they have. Deep teams like Canada have the cream of the crop, mostly superstars, but many fringe NHLers on other national teams would be more at risk. So now there is an even more unlevel playing field.

roxyfan · Feb 25, 2018

Kawailuvr said:
It’s just a game bro ...

Exactly....please tell me that you have more going in your life than counting on a gold medal in ice hockey to make you happy. This has nothing to do with greed. Players are employees of the teams and the NHL has nothing to gain and everything to lose by allowing players to participate. One freak injury and there goes someone's star player.

thailover · Feb 25, 2018

Plain and simple—Rene fasel from the IIHF and his euro centric thinking can go fuck himself

shack · Feb 25, 2018

thailover said:
Plain and simple—Rene fasel from the IIHF and his euro centric thinking can go fuck himself

Bingo. They need the NHL more than the other way around. Kudos to Bettman for recognizing this and dealing from a position of strength. He may still be a weasel, but he handled it properly.

shack · Feb 25, 2018

Occasionally said:
how many NHL players would even participate? 80 out of 700? And the league or owners can't cover this?

I just Googled it and the IOC paid $7M US to cover insurance in 2014 Olympics. So all this came down to less than $10M (assuming insurance fees crept up). So all the owners and league can't find let's say..... $8M?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey_at_the_Olympic_Games

I read it and I don't believe it. Those 80 contracts have to be worth several billion dollars. One career ending injury, or one even lasting one year and the insurance company loses.

Those numbers do not make sense.

Gibbons#1 · Feb 25, 2018

Germany won the last World Cup I say we ban all players from the Bundesliga for the 2018 World Cup in order to create a more equitable playing field. Instead of forcing everyone else to raise their game to match Germany we’ll just ban them and all sink down everyone else’s level. While we’re at it ban Portuguese and Brazilian players because they won the last Euros and Olympics. Whoever wins the 2018 World Cup, we’ll ban the hell out of them too!

sempel · Feb 25, 2018

roxyfan said:
Exactly....please tell me that you have more going in your life than counting on a gold medal in ice hockey to make you happy. This has nothing to do with greed. Players are employees of the teams and the NHL has nothing to gain and everything to lose by allowing players to participate. One freak injury and there goes someone's star player.

Agreed. The funny thing is some people equate a gold medal to being the best. Sorry but that is not the case for certain sports. You have sports like track and field where the person who has the lowest time, the hardest throw, or the highest jump in the last year and is winning all the meets is almost guaranteed to get the gold unless something freakish happens. But when the favorite wins they are the best based on the measured values. But for sports like hockey or other competitive games, it's dependent on the players, the team, the coaches, the dynamic, and other factors. You see it in soccer where sometimes a team that isn't slated to do well ends up winning (e.g. Greece winning Eurocup).

So Canada didn't win but Canada didn't send its best (the NHL stars) so did we really lose? Under different circumstances we probably win.

Gibbons#1 said:
Germany won the last World Cup I say we ban all players from the Bundesliga for the 2018 World Cup in order to create a more equitable playing field. Instead of forcing everyone else to raise their game to match Germany we’ll just ban them and all sink down everyone else’s level. While we’re at it ban Portuguese and Brazilian players because they won the last Euros and Olympics. Whoever wins the 2018 World Cup, we’ll ban the hell out of them too!

Why the Bundesliga? Just because it's in Germany, the league has players from all over the world. Same with the other leagues. I know you're being sarcastic but at least be correct in the point...lol

tml · Feb 26, 2018

shack said:
Bingo. They need the NHL more than the other way around. Kudos to Bettman for recognizing this and dealing from a position of strength. He may still be a weasel, but he handled it properly.

He won't say no to the Chinese for the next Winter olympics.

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