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Chanting Basketball = Racism???

sempel

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Yet the majority of the engineers I studied with who spent their days focussed solely on school work did not end up getting management level positions and are out-earned by those of us who balanced studying and sports/clubs/etc.

We had the discussion here a while back about IQ and race and the result was the science does not support the claims of significant variation in IQ by race.


p.s In North America, Asians (beyond being an extremely broad group) represent a pretty small number so any stats have to be taken with a grain of salt.
Amongst every race there are going to be people at the higher end of the intelligence spectrum and some at the lower end. If anyone remembers Trading Places, the crux was you can take a rich, white, well-educated individual and put them in a bad situation and they will deteriorate. Conversely, take a black, poor, low-educated person and put them in a good situation and they will rise. Yes it's a movie but there's certainly some truth to it - put individuals in certain supportive environments and they will succeed.

The difference between most Asian families and many standard NA families (ethnicity irrelevant but kids Canadian born or mostly Canadian raised) is the general work ethic. You can see this amongst Jewish families (why are so many Jewish people doctors or successful businessmen?) and EI's - it's a work ethic, not necessarily just innate intelligence. Take any child and ingrain in them a strong work ethic and a desire to succeed and they will do so in their own way.

To your point about focused/well-rounded, it's not hard to understand that there's more to any job than just the technical side. Many people know their own shit but cannot present it to others or socialize well with others. You have to have a combo of both to rise in any organization (knowledge and social skills). A focused person will know all the small details but is not trained or accustomed to thinking strategically or considering the big picture - they are highly focused on their niche only. MBA programs were created for engineers originally to help them understand the business side of an organization.

I think each group has a certain culture that persists and that's why Asians and EI's are considered smart (there are other groups too of course) but the culture revolves around working hard, not socializing, and aiming to make no mistakes. I think there's definitely segments of different groups that have this same attitude but definitely amongst some groups there is a percentage of that group that does not stress hard, honest work will help you to succeed.
 

Smallcock

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Yet the majority of the engineers I studied with who spent their days focussed solely on school work did not end up getting management level positions and are out-earned by those of us who balanced studying and sports/clubs/etc.
The evidence is clear that people with university degrees out earn people without. If Asians are going to university at greater levels, they're going to earn more than most people. They're very sociable, too, at least among each other.

We had the discussion here a while back about IQ and race and the result was the science does not support the claims of significant variation in IQ by race.
What is significant? One standard deviation?


p.s In North America, Asians (beyond being an extremely broad group) represent a pretty small number so any stats have to be taken with a grain of salt.
True, it's a largely self-selected group.
 

derrick76

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Typical. Unable to deal with the cold, harsh realities of obvious racism the shift to some other talking point about model minorities etc etc.

Diversionary Tactics 101 as taught at Trump University.
 

sempel

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Typical. Unable to deal with the cold, harsh realities of obvious racism the shift to some other talking point about model minorities etc etc.

Diversionary Tactics 101 as taught at Trump University.
Lol. There will always be the few who play dumb to hide their feelings/sentiment or to win an argument that cannot be won.
 

basketcase

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What is significant? One standard deviation?....
One standard deviation for IQ is around 15. Numbers I've seen have Asian countries around 3 points higher than Canada which puts it well within the range of error/bias implicit in the tests.
 

Smallcock

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One standard deviation for IQ is around 15. Numbers I've seen have Asian countries around 3 points higher than Canada which puts it well within the range of error/bias implicit in the tests.
I see what you're saying - that the Asian/White IQ gap is not significantly large. East Asian IQ worldwide centers around 106.
 

wigglee

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Canada or USA? Which period in time? You'll need to expound.
In Canada, the Chinese did all the dirty work building the railway through the mountains and were treated like shit and exposed to ridiculously dangerous working conditions for shit pay. Then there was the head tax and the fact that the only job they could get was starting their own restaurant or laundry service. People in small towns isolated them and called them chinamen or chinks . Not sure, but I assume similar story in the U.S.
 

HOLLYWOODG

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In Canada, the Chinese did all the dirty work building the railway through the mountains and were treated like shit and exposed to ridiculously dangerous working conditions for shit pay. Then there was the head tax and the fact that the only job they could get was starting their own restaurant or laundry service. People in small towns isolated them and called them chinamen or chinks . Not sure, but I assume similar story in the U.S.
Your absolutely correct. That's why J.J. Reddick recently was in hot water when wishing Chinese people Happy New Year in a NBA video. Sometimes you're just a product of your environment and let things slip. He truly meant know malice though.

https://www.sbnation.com/lookit/201...racial-slur-chinese-new-year-video-nba-sixers
 

basketcase

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The difference between most Asian families and many standard NA families (ethnicity irrelevant but kids Canadian born or mostly Canadian raised) is the general work ethic. ....
That was exactly my point at the start of this discussion.
 

essguy_

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My ex-wife was Chinese (not born here) so I witnessed more than a few incidents over the years. Most of it because of ignorance but it's still out there. Some overt. But a lot of it was subtle - kind of like chanting "Basketball" to a black hockey player. Eg: When we were shopping for our second house - one realtor, not knowing my wife was with me, actually whispered that the neighbourhood was good because there "weren't too many Asians.... yet". So it's hard to imagine what the first wave immigrants (who built the railway and suffered from the head-tax) went through.

Also - for those who think Asians doing well is the norm - simply look at all the servers and labourers throughout Toronto. Yes, some Asians are incredibly affluent but the majority are not and many are just trying to scrape by and make a living like any other Canadian. I swear that the successful ones are only noticed more because they're Asian - they are still the minority.

Anyway, I can definitely say that there is a cultural difference with regard to work ethic and education. Eg: the way developed Asian cultures look at education and teachers is different than North America. Total respect and teachers have total authority. I also saw this when I worked in Japan. You would never see students talking back to teachers as you see in North America (or how badly I treated some of my teachers!) Public schools have uniforms as a matter of practice too. My ex-Mother in Law would even cook my ex a special "brain" meal before major tests when she was a kid through high school.
 

Smallcock

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My ex-wife was Chinese (not born here) so I witnessed more than a few incidents over the years. Most of it because of ignorance but it's still out there. Some overt. But a lot of it was subtle - kind of like chanting "Basketball" to a black hockey player. Eg: When we were shopping for our second house - one realtor, not knowing my wife was with me, actually whispered that the neighbourhood was good because there "weren't too many Asians.... yet". So it's hard to imagine what the first wave immigrants (who built the railway and suffered from the head-tax) went through.
And ironically first wave immigrants are likely among the most bigoted themselves. A few years ago a few friends and I were in Markham and stopped off at a Chinese restaurant during the day. We were served food that was.... clearly inedible. It was their way of saying, 'we don't want you here'. We didn't make a fuss and just left. It was a shame and shocking considering that my friends and I, born in Canada, were overtly discriminated against by immigrants, in Canada.
 

essguy_

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And ironically first wave immigrants are likely among the most bigoted themselves. A few years ago a few friends and I were in Markham and stopped off at a Chinese restaurant during the day. We were served food that was.... inedible. It was their way of saying, 'we don't want you here'. We didn't make a fuss and just left. It was a shame and shocking considering that my friends and I, born in Canada, were overtly discriminated against by immigrants, in Canada.
And ironically, you're commenting on "first wave immigrants" using an anecdote that is 3 or 4 generations removed from "First Wave immigrants."
 

Smallcock

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And ironically, you're commenting on "first wave immigrants" using an anecdote that is 3 or 4 generations removed from "First Wave immigrants."
You think that first wave immigrants 100 years ago were less racist than now? lol
 

essguy_

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You think that first wave immigrants 100 years ago were less racist than now? lol
They had to be. Eg: Imagine setting up a restaurant in small town Canada along the railway with what you were able to save from labouring on the railway. How many Asian customers, suppliers, neighbours, friends, do you think they had? The recent immigrants (including my ex-wife) have not experienced anything near the overt racism that the first wave experienced. That's why you will see bigotry in recent immigrants - because they can live in a neighbourhood where they are the overwhelming majority. That wasn't how it was for the first wave. They had to fit in, adapt, and become model Canadians.
 

sempel

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They had to be. Eg: Imagine setting up a restaurant in small town Canada along the railway with what you were able to save from labouring on the railway. How many Asian customers, suppliers, neighbours, friends, do you think they had? The recent immigrants (including my ex-wife) have not experienced anything near the overt racism that the first wave experienced. That's why you will see bigotry in recent immigrants - because they can live in a neighbourhood where they are the overwhelming majority. That wasn't how it was for the first wave. They had to fit in, adapt, and become model Canadians.
Generally speaking, any first wave of immigrants from a different nation will experience overt racism. History has detailed Irish and Scottish people dealt with it when they arrived, many EI immigrants felt it when many came here, and history classes definitely made mention of the fact that Chinese people were not treated well and some were brought in to work on the railroads because they were expendable. The line from an "Our Heritage" commercial states "There's a dead Chinaman for every KM of track". I find it odd that some people are claiming ignorance about these clear facts. Even reading the "Book of Negroes", it's clear that although slavery was abolished in Canada well before the US, didn't mean black people were suddenly equals. Plenty of racism to go around unless you are a WASP.
 

Smallcock

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They had to be. Eg: Imagine setting up a restaurant in small town Canada along the railway with what you were able to save from labouring on the railway. How many Asian customers, suppliers, neighbours, friends, do you think they had? The recent immigrants (including my ex-wife) have not experienced anything near the overt racism that the first wave experienced. That's why you will see bigotry in recent immigrants - because they can live in a neighbourhood where they are the overwhelming majority. That wasn't how it was for the first wave. They had to fit in, adapt, and become model Canadians.
No no no no. Anti-racism is a very modern Western concept. Overt racism is alive and well beyond the borders of the West just as it has always been, and it has nothing to do with the specifics of the Asian experience working on railroads here. It is for that reason, that first wave immigrants from China and elsewhere are likely to be more bigoted than native Canadians.

If you think that first wave Chinese were predisposed to wanting a rainbow of people living around them, you're drinking too much koolaid. They came here for money and opportunity, not because they were noble lovers of all people.
 

essguy_

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No no no no. Anti-racism is a very modern Western concept. Overt racism is alive and well beyond the borders of the West just as it has always been, and it has nothing to do with the specifics of the Asian experience working on railroads here. It is for that reason, that first wave immigrants from China and elsewhere are likely to be more bigoted than native Canadians.

If you think that first wave Chinese were predisposed to wanting a rainbow of people living around them, you're drinking too much koolaid. They came here for money and opportunity, not because they were noble lovers of all people.
No - you have absolutely no historical perspective. The first wave immigrants were here for a reason - opportunity. That makes them outliers vs whatever existed in their homelands - so grouping them together is a huge mistake. It took a lot more courage and optimism for the first wave immigrants to make the journey (likely one way) here vs the recent immigrants (many who are economic immigrants - already wealthy and mobile). And why are people racist? Because of strength in numbers. Even you would likely drop your racism if you were dropped into a country where you were a miniscule minority.
 

derrick76

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In Canada, the Chinese did all the dirty work building the railway through the mountains and were treated like shit and exposed to ridiculously dangerous working conditions for shit pay. Then there was the head tax and the fact that the only job they could get was starting their own restaurant or laundry service. People in small towns isolated them and called them chinamen or chinks . Not sure, but I assume similar story in the U.S.
Before I moved to Canada at age 22, my main experience was with the USA where I spent my entire summers from age 2 to 19 (The Bronx and Florida) with family. I can tell you the racism there is extremely real and there is quite a bit to complain about by certain groups. The country that told the world how to treat people with respect couldn't do the same for those with dark skin. Jim crow, hunted, hung from trees, etc etc etc. I spent time with people who were alive, and were attacked, during that era. I wonder if you have.

Lest you forget, the lady at the centre of the lynching and death of Emmett Till just recently confessed that she lied. Black Wall Street? There's a lot more there in Great USA history for you to peruse if you are willing.

See also the Native American. Lots for you to consider.
 
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