#metoo Mentality Hitting Closer to Home

Chimpanzeethat said:

not surprised in the least at the o.p.

I too wonder where this will all end up. Common sense is a thing of the past. Women I know and whose opinion I valued openly tell me there's nothing wrong with innocent men losing careers unjustly if the result is an improved sexual responsibility in society. Our daughter is 21 and recently told her mom she's going to cut us off because we don't agree with what she's being taught about white privilege in school. It's nuts out here.

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I'm interested to know what they are teaching in school about white privilege and the nature of your disagreement if you are ok to share - may want to PM or create another thread

very shy2 said:

Here's the thing.

Even in this thread, no-one, not one of you has talked about how disadvantaged this particular guy is. Not just "o'well, too bad so sad". He is very close to loosing his job, his family (Assuming he's married), his house and everything else he has worked for and won;t be able to get back on trac. Not because of what he did or didn't do, but because he's a man.

There are those out there who will say, well women have been hit hard for centuries and not it's men's turn.


(Ok, I'm calming down now, it's all going to be ok. Does someone have a boob to grab for a second?)

Give me a break. The worst women have had to endure is choosing to stay at home with the kid, or going for lunch with the girls after rolling out of bed at 11. (OK maybe thats a bit exaggerated).

But women have certainly been fully protected BY MEN, without having to protect even themselves.

Even in todays age, the hereo's who gave their lives (YES THEIR LIVES), in the Florida shooting were both men, the 911 first responders who gave their lives were men and women, well actually 411 men and 3 women.

If you live in the US and refuse to be drafted into the Army then it's the men who face 5 years in prison and $250k in fines. The law says men!

Sheesh! do guys want to wait until it's actually you, personally you who gets to sleep in the truck tonight and for the next 6 months?

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Before you decide to rant and rave take the time to read what has been written. First, the OP has said NOTHING about this individual being fired, only a potential promotion might be denied. Second, I'm pretty sure the majority of comments detail outrage out how this is unfair. And then half your points really have no bearing on this situation so I don't know what point you are trying to make. Go grab that boob (with permission) and calm down.

a witchhunt hiding behind social justice. it's a joke and the real victims never get justice

Men are truly scared of being acused, and their reactions are having negative effects on women:

https://twitter.com/hashtag/MentorHer?src=hash

https://twitter.com/ariannahuff/status/960902212003221504

"With a disproportionate number of men in positions of power, the mentorship of women by men is critical to create parity in the workplace. But the flood of sexual harassment allegations and subsequent career implosions of high-powered men including Harvey Weinstein and Steve Wynn has resulted in a backlash. A recent survey by LeanIn.Org and SurveyMonkey showed almost half of male managers are now uncomfortable participating in common work activities with women, including working alone and mentoring.

Its findings are devastating: Almost 30% of male managers say they are not comfortable working alone with a woman — more than twice as many as before, according to the same study. The number of male managers who are uncomfortable mentoring women has more than tripled, from 5% to 16%. The research, which was commissioned after anecdotal evidence suggested such a reaction, means that one in six male managers may now hesitate to mentor a woman.

"It’s depressing when senior men are 3.5 times more hesitant to have a working dinner with a junior woman than a junior man, and five times more hesitant to travel with a junior woman than a junior man," said Rachel Thomas, president of LeanIn.Org. "That means women are getting less valuable interaction with senior leaders." - forbes.com

An interesting example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

anotherwebguy said:

Men are truly scared of being acused, and their reactions are having negative effects on women:

https://twitter.com/hashtag/MentorHer?src=hash

https://twitter.com/ariannahuff/status/960902212003221504

"With a disproportionate number of men in positions of power, the mentorship of women by men is critical to create parity in the workplace. But the flood of sexual harassment allegations and subsequent career implosions of high-powered men including Harvey Weinstein and Steve Wynn has resulted in a backlash. A recent survey by LeanIn.Org and SurveyMonkey showed almost half of male managers are now uncomfortable participating in common work activities with women, including working alone and mentoring.

Its findings are devastating: Almost 30% of male managers say they are not comfortable working alone with a woman — more than twice as many as before, according to the same study. The number of male managers who are uncomfortable mentoring women has more than tripled, from 5% to 16%. The research, which was commissioned after anecdotal evidence suggested such a reaction, means that one in six male managers may now hesitate to mentor a woman.

"It’s depressing when senior men are 3.5 times more hesitant to have a working dinner with a junior woman than a junior man, and five times more hesitant to travel with a junior woman than a junior man," said Rachel Thomas, president of LeanIn.Org. "That means women are getting less valuable interaction with senior leaders." - forbes.com

An interesting example of the Law of Unintended Consequences.

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While I agree with what you say, I will say I think a bunch of guys are blowing things out of proportion. There are plenty of ways to interact with and mentor women where there is little/zero chance of anyone suggesting impropriety. Yes, there are a few bad apple females where you ask them for the time and they cry harassment. These existed before and after MeToo. But I don't see the majority of women jumping on any opportunity to cry foul unless something unbecoming takes place. If you treat a woman with respect and not a target for affection or a sex object, there won't be a problem. Yes, guys need to be aware of the current climate and maybe take an extra step or two to cover your ass. But how many guys here have had normal, non-sexual, private meetings with women where nothing happened other than work?

CYA a little more. Keep doors ajar, meet in open/public spaces. Meet with colleagues versus private one-on-one. Stick to talking about the work and a little light small talk.

sempel said:

While I agree with what you say, I will say I think a bunch of guys are blowing things out of proportion. There are plenty of ways to interact with and mentor women where there is little/zero chance of anyone suggesting impropriety. Yes, there are a few bad apple females where you ask them for the time and they cry harassment. These existed before and after MeToo. But I don't see the majority of women jumping on any opportunity to cry foul unless something unbecoming takes place. If you treat a woman with respect and not a target for affection or a sex object, there won't be a problem. Yes, guys need to be aware of the current climate and maybe take an extra step or two to cover your ass. But how many guys here have had normal, non-sexual, private meetings with women where nothing happened other than work?

CYA a little more. Keep doors ajar, meet in open/public spaces. Meet with colleagues versus private one-on-one. Stick to talking about the work and a little light small talk.

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Sure, most women will not cause any trouble where none was intended. It's the relatively small minority who do so, that spoil it for the majority. Most people who will cause trouble don't advertise it before they get hired; some, and relatively few, turn into dragons. Once they're in, it's virtually impossible to get rid of them without facing all manner of recriminations and finally, a huge severance payout. It's a matter of probability. Believe it or not, the company gave me an opportunity to go to Florida and do some work. I refused because of the risk of violence; the probability is low, but not as low working in Toronto. A higher probability, albeit still not a great one, is enough to turn off a lot of people, and that should also apply to getting fingered without ill intent by an overly fragile or activist woman you are assigned to work with.

Not really my opinion, just an interesting observation, especially the tweets below the original ( https://twitter.com/hashtag/MentorHer?src=hash

https://twitter.com/ariannahuff/stat...02212003221504 ). Perception has become reality.

"CYA a little more. Keep doors ajar, meet in open/public spaces. Meet with colleagues versus private one-on-one. Stick to talking about the work and a little light small talk. "

Yes, that's the whole point. You are describing quarantining (minimizing potential) of a threat, and a lot like a first meet sketchy blind date ( lol ! ). If you need to CYA due to a perceived threat, the generator of that threat is not going to be looked upon in an organization as an asset, but rather a potential danger to a company or manager that must be protected against. Anyone that is perceived as a threat that needs to have CYA actions taken against, is going to be reluctantly embraced for promotion, advancement, or even inclusion. Because careers and company survival is at stake from just an anonymous accusation, unfortunately some women will by necessity, be sidelined because they are considered ones who cannot be trusted, whether this fair or not.

Picture this, how does a female sales executive do her job effectively under your CYA protocol? Would your company place a huge order from a supplier if you were obliged to engage in CYA protocols with their female rep for your own protection? How does she build up a business relationship and trust in her clients for her products and the company she reps, if her customers are afraid to be alone with her in an office with the door closed? How does a successful saleswomen hope to gain trust and confidence with her customer and get to know them, if customers have to take steps to avoid certain conversation topics by maintaining light small talk? I have worked in sales and promotions my whole life, this does not work.

As men we all know how much business gets done in the locker room, on golf courses, on trips, at dinners, over lunch, and drinks. Networking and interpersonal bonding is a common factor in relationship building in business. If women are excluded from these types of team and camaraderie activities for whatever reason, it will seriously hinder their networking opportunities and career advancement , and they will be quietly excluded. I can see segregated workplaces becoming more common eventually, as the glass ceiling turns to concrete for them.

The real problem is, as the OP pointed out in the first post, that the complaint may be a complete fabrication. All the CYA protocols in the world will never protect against such a situation because the event never actually took place, but as a male manager, you would not be given the chance to defend yourself.

sempel said:

While I agree with what you say, I will say I think a bunch of guys are blowing things out of proportion.

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Being on the wrong end of #metoo is statistically small, but the more that a man has to lose, the more he's going to avoid any potential to ruin his life. If a man has worked hard all his life, built up a great reputation, makes great money, has a great family, and is essentially living the dream, asking him to risk it all just to be a do-gooder is not insignificant.

IRIS said:

[url=https://postimages.org/][/URL]

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Love it! I also have issues with roller derby.

this is like the same with police. a few bad apples on the police force wont change the entire picture. some guys have wishful thinking that this will change things and make it easier for guys in the workforce and things more lenient and relaxed. it wont.

just like with police force, a few bad apples wont change a thing, hasnt changed a thing for years. police are police. they still go around doing what they want and have been for years.

same with women.

same with politicians. theyve been getting away with things for years also.nothing will change

Chimpanzeethat said:

not surprised in the least at the o.p.

I too wonder where this will all end up. Common sense is a thing of the past. Women I know and whose opinion I valued openly tell me there's nothing wrong with innocent men losing careers unjustly if the result is an improved sexual responsibility in society. Our daughter is 21 and recently told her mom she's going to cut us off because we don't agree with what she's being taught about white privilege in school. It's nuts out here.

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How does your daughter plan to make ends meet if she cuts you off while 21 and still in school?

Smallcock said:

How does your daughter plan to make ends meet if she cuts you off while 21 and still in school?

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Perhaps you've never heard of this concept - she'll get a job...lol!

sempel said:

Perhaps you've never heard of this concept - she'll get a job...lol!

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Sure but unless she plans to become an escort, I don't think she's thought it through enough. She'll be undercutting her entire future (i.e. making it much more difficult) by going her own way when she can save at least on rent (and perhaps on tuition if her parents are paying for it now). It's a troubling display of naivety.

kkelso said:

Much of what you write is valid, but I feel that you miss the point.

Business is difficult now, it's not like the 80s where we were all falling ass-backwards into profits. It's tough out there, and it's killing us, men in greater proportion.

My job is hard enough as it is. If I have two candidates for hiring, or an assignment, or advancement in front of me and they are both equal except that one of them poses 10x the probability of lawsuit and/or losing your career, which do you think I should choose?

Duh.

The more movements like #metoo make laying an accusation socially acceptable and promotable, the more it lives in the back of the mind of every hiring manager. Also, as hard as my job is, do I want to spend my days watching every little thing I say for fear of offending someone resulting in a visit from HR, or do I want to be able to be myself?

KK

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Given your scenario, of course you choose the one where there is 10X less probability of issues. That said, is that solely based on male/female? So every woman is likely to sue? That's very cynical. And eventually this little plan falls through when you get sued for discrimination based on gender.

Can we agree that the MAJORITY of claims are likely accurate/truthful? I don't think waves of women have come forward and claimed harassment when zero existed. There will be some for sure, but the majority of stories are women who have been harassed. So a bunch of guys, many of which might have skirted or crossed the line in some cases are shitting in their pants. But for a guy that has done nothing, never tried anything, and doesn't see female coworkers as sexual targets, very little to fear. And if there is a fear, operate in ways that make it very difficult for a case to be made against you.

In our organization, we’ve found that as we approach gender parity organizationally, and in-particular in our mid-to-upper-management positions, we have seen a drop off in both complaints, and incidences where we are obligated to take action on.

We have, what I feel, is an excellent training program on workplace harassment, and continue to update our policies to reflect an ever raising bar, in-terms of what does or does not constitute workplace harassment.

Our high-flyers, in-terms of complainants, continue to be high-flyers, but even as the bar raises, their success-rate doesn’t change. I believe this has a lot to do with the quality and credibility of our investigative process.

Completely fabricated accusations aside, it’s not hard to avoid the #MeToo black hole if you have common-sense, and empathy.

managee said:

In our organization, we’ve found that as we approach gender parity organizationally, and in-particular in our mid-to-upper-management positions, we have seen a drop off in both complaints, and incidences where we are obligated to take action on.

We have, what I feel, is an excellent training program on workplace harassment, and continue to update our policies to reflect an ever raising bar, in-terms of what does or does not constitute workplace harassment.

Our high-flyers, in-terms of complainants, continue to be high-flyers, but even as the bar raises, their success-rate doesn’t change. I believe this has a lot to do with the quality and credibility of our investigative process.

Completely fabricated accusations aside, it’s not hard to avoid the #MeToo black hole if you have common-sense, and empathy.

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That's precisely my point.

IRIS said:

Welcome in this sick liberal-feminist fucked up world. It's a shame what happen these days around the world with men, or anyone who's not agree or criticize these hateful creatures.

[url=https://postimages.org/][/URL]

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LOL.

Aside from perhaps owning a successful tattoo shop, I bet any female resembling this image will be a fringe player in society with little to offer.

The nose ring is wrong though..... it should be one of those bull taurus rings.

in a world where women are always believed and their word is truth, guilty until proven innocent, courts take words as truth without actual evidence to support allegations. women do make false allegations(based on their feelings and not actual intent of alleged harasser) and men do harass; however, its is what it is and instinctively people will protect their own best interest. until the legal system and the witch hunt find a "fair" evidence based way to find guilt or innocence people will always take the easiest route to keep themselves safe.

Maybe we could ask that women stop shaving, stop wearing makeup and fake eye lashes and fake hair, stop wearing high-heels and skirts, in the workplace. These were all inventions to hyper-sexualize women. Without them, women would look more like little men and will be objectified less. Any takers?

Smallcock said:

Maybe we could ask that women stop shaving, stop wearing makeup and fake eye lashes and fake hair, stop wearing high-heels and skirts, in the workplace. These were all inventions to hyper-sexualize women. Without them, women would look more like little men and will be objectified less. Any takers?

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There was an infinite of Weinstein like behaviour in the past and the chickens are still coming home to roost, other past behavior may remain in the closet forever. Going forward, many women will likely have to change any "hyper-sexualized" displaces in the workplace so that the game will still be played but much differently as many guys these days are walking on egg shells and fell castrated.