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Shooting at a Florida high school

shack

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Butler1000

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Add to that the vast majority of school shootings have been done by kids, so when the cops come rushing in they're gonna be looking for an armed kid and not necessarily a teacher
They will look for anyone with a gun. Shoot them and sort it out later. Be realistic. This isn't the movies.
 

Butler1000

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The 4 deputies were paid and trained for armed intervention. They were paid to put themselves in a potentially dangerous situation, which they didn't do. Looks like that police department has problems with their organisation.

The middle aged teacher is equipped for self defense. He/she is already in the middle of that situation.



Proper training prevents panic situations. When the fear factor sets in (nobody wants to die), one's IQ goes down by 50%, depending on the individual. In those situations, people revert to their training. So if you got no training, you won't know what to do and either freeze or possibly act counter productively. When you're trained, your trained reflexes kick in. A good example are emergency procedures that are practiced by airline pilots in simulators; too late to think about it when an engine quits on take-off if you've only read about it before. It takes a few hours of training for the average person. They are proposing to train these volunteers, and not just give the guns away.




A proper concealed carry course instructs you to keep your handgun kept inside your hidden hoster until you are ready to actually use it. So if you're running towards where the action is, you keep it hidden until you get there and assess the situation first. That way, other armed people will not shoot at you, thinking that you're an aggressor. In any case, it would be expected that the teachers and other school employees know each other



That comment smacks of racism. We've gotten from an 18 year old wearing military fatigues running around shooting a rifle at anybody, to a middle aged teacher who everybody knows in a suit who hasn't revealed his gun yet. In any case, concealed carry courses teach you that you are taking a risk of being mistaken for a bad guy if you draw your gun; but that may be the risk you take for defending yourself and/or doing your civic duty. And when the cops get there, you probably will get arrested and have a bunch of laser sights on you, until they sort everything out. But that's why you volunteer.
That's nice for the movies. In real life everything I've said is not only possible but probable. Four TRAINED LE didn't go in. And remember shooters are shooting in a crowd of kids. Running panicking kids. You expect anyone let alone a teacher with a once a year course to sort it OUT?

And the usa is filled with racism. Get over yourself.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Dec 27, 2010
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They will look for anyone with a gun. Shoot them and sort it out later. Be realistic. This isn't the movies
Butler, in this case where cops refused to go into the school, would you have been preferred to be armed or unarmed as a teacher??
 

essguy_

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Butler, in this case where cops refused to go into the school, would you have been preferred to be armed or unarmed as a teacher??
The better question is: If you were a person tasked with entering, clearing, and securing this school - would you want to have multiple people, possibly out of touch with the outside world, likely panicking - armed and ready to fire at anybody else with a gun?

Anyway, both this as well as the Sutherland Springs Church shooting show that above all else - a Nationally required (no exceptions) background check system that is better able to coordinate information from various sources would have prevented both shooters from LEGALLY obtaining weapons. Think about it. There were SO many red-flags about Cruz that the FBI were warned and teachers were warned not to let him near the school wearing a backpack. Yet he was able to purchase a gun legally after his background check came up clear. The Sutherland Springs Shooter had been convicted and served 12 months for domestic abuse. The Air Force acknowledged that his court martial was not entered into the National Crime Information Center database. THIS is where effort should be expended, not on arming and training teachers whose budgets even for books and materials (let alone salaries) are already stretched.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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The better question is: If you were a person tasked with entering, clearing, and securing this school - would you want to have multiple people, possibly out of touch with the outside world, likely panicking - armed and ready to fire at anybody else with a gun?
I'll take my chances. The alternative is not having a gun and being led to the slaughter like a lamb. No thanks!!

A Nationally required (no exceptions) background check system that is better able to coordinate information from various sources would have prevented both shooters from LEGALLY obtaining weapons. Think about it. There were SO many red-flags about Cruz that the FBI were warned and teachers were warned not to let him near the school wearing a backpack. Yet he was able to purchase a gun legally after his background check came up clear
The kid couldve had a million red flags, if he was never a convicted felon he would pass every background check
 

essguy_

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For an interesting perspective read this article. 3 veterans give their views on arming teachers. One against, one for (with the qualification that he thinks it's about perception so only good as a deterrent) and one neutral. (Note - read with an open mind - without dismissing views because eg: VoteVets is considered too "progressive" in their views.) The ONE common element in all their comments is that it is totally unrealistic to expect to train teachers to act like soldiers or even policemen. Also - all three are kind of sympathetic to the security guard, in the sense that they acknowledge lack of training and lack of teammates as possible reasons for his lack of action.

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a18698737/what-veterans-say-about-arming-teachers/
 

Butler1000

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Butler, in this case where cops refused to go into the school, would you have been preferred to be armed or unarmed as a teacher??
I'm not the rest of the world Phil. Most people are panicky animals. I see friendly fire as just as dangerous. Maybe more. Because then you end up with a crossfire. And when cops do pour in multiple armed targets.

Look there is no solution involving more guns that makes it better.

I'm still of the opinion that semi auto weapons should be banned amongst civilians. Across the board.

That's my solution. Change the culture.
 

mclarkez1980

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US needs to lobby congress to offer penile implants to all white men in order to lessen the need of guns to compensate...and a positive by product might be fewer pick up trucks?!
 

Butler1000

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US needs to lobby congress to offer penile implants to all white men in order to lessen the need of guns to compensate...and a positive by product might be fewer pick up trucks?!
And all the gun crime in the inner cities?
 

Smallcock

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US needs to lobby congress to offer penile implants to all white men in order to lessen the need of guns to compensate...and a positive by product might be fewer pick up trucks?!
But the gun homicide rate in the US will still be sky high since it's almost all by black-on-black related murder. What are they compensating for?
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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It doesn't matter what I said, you keep on blathering on the same false premises, and you're mired in misinformed stereotypes. You don't even read what I write; or maybe your memory is somewhat lacking.


But I hope that facts may be more important for others looking at both sides of the issue.
You're right in one case, it doesn't matter what you (or I) say.

Cops are paid to deal with active shooter situations yet 4 cops chose to wait outside. At the same time you want volunteer teachers to step in and deal with what the cops would not. Hardly a sensible option.

Of course there is also the idea of using a hand gun to cope with a semi-auto rifle. Having actually shot both, I wouldn't be comfortable being on the teacher's side.
 

basketcase

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Add to that the vast majority of school shootings have been done by kids, so when the cops come rushing in they're gonna be looking for an armed kid and not necessarily a teacher
Yep, no teachers have ever snapped. I had teachers throw things at kids, not a big jump to have one pull out their concealed piece to threaten kids.
 

basketcase

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...
Anyway, both this as well as the Sutherland Springs Church shooting show that above all else - a Nationally required (no exceptions) background check system that is better able to coordinate information from various sources would have prevented both shooters from LEGALLY obtaining weapons. ....
I loved hearing a NRA guy complaining about the flaws in the US NCIS program, flaws that the NRA successfully lobbied to put in.
 

basketcase

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Butler, in this case where cops refused to go into the school, would you have been preferred to be armed or unarmed as a teacher??
I'd prefer a system that kept guns out of the hands of mentally unstable individuals with a history of problems.

But if I was a teacher in that situation, I'd be more concerned about locking my door and keeping the kids away from windows than running into the hall and looking for someone to shoot.
 

basketcase

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The kid couldve had a million red flags, if he was never a convicted felon he would pass every background check
That's the problem with the current US system. He had documented mental health issues but was still allowed to buy 10 guns (while still being too young to legally drink).
 

Butler1000

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In other news the economic attacks are ramping him against the NRA. Many companies are breaking ties with them. Investments firms are considering dumping manufacturers, and even banks are cutting ties.

And a grassroots movement to boycott Spring Break in Florida is ramping up. This could lead to an overall tourism boycott.

The tides are changing.
 

basketcase

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I can see some similarities between this shooting and Kent State in the way they are motivating a youth movement (and to be provocative, can see similarities between how the NRA is now being viewed and how the Klan was viewed in the 60's - some hardcore supporters but a growing negative perception from the rest)
 

essguy_

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hand guns/pistols and shot guns are enough for civilian self defense. why are the gun rights advocates here not satisfied with those guns?
Well for one thing, the SA is not about self-defense. It's about a well regulated militia having the weaponry to fight a tyrannical Federal Govt. So in any debate, it's important to make sure that you're all talking about the same thing.


I personally believe that you can have far stricter gun controls on the sales, licensing, and background check side without impeding any SA rights on the weapons side and achieve the same goals of reducing the probabilities of mass shootings.
 
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