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Jerusalem decision will precipitate greater chaos.

cye

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Jul 11, 2008
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbass-speech-lobbed-a-hot-potato-in-the-israeli-rights-lap/

It seems obvious that Abbas’s control of Fatah and influence over other factions in the West Bank is nearing an end. Palestinians have seen their cause diminish in importance with other Arabs as the Sunni- Shia divide and the Saudi-Iranian conflict and bid to exert influence has removed the possibility of concerted action against Israel.
This may appear satisfying to those on the right in Israel but the satisfaction gained will be temporary. The only thing worse on Israel’s border than a failed state, is a failed non state for which Israel will be responsible.
For the Trump administration to have precipitated this escalation in chaos while losing the ability to be considered an honest broker is further proof they don’t understand or care that American leadership is more important than the ridiculous poorly defined America First platform.
 

jcpro

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You guys keep repeating the same mantra like parrots- no longer an honest broker. America was never an honest broker in the ME. America always took sides in the region's affairs.
 

cye

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You guys keep repeating the same mantra like parrots- no longer an honest broker. America was never an honest broker in the ME. America always took sides in the region's affairs.
Then substitute credible for honest. The point is that the possibility for a stable solution gets more remote every day while the probability of another Intifada increases.
 

Frankfooter

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Then substitute credible for honest. The point is that the possibility for a stable solution gets more remote every day while the probability of another Intifada increases.
You should check the maps with settlements, its really too late for any kind of two state solution, there just isn't enough land left for a contiguous state. There haven't been peace talks for years and trying to claim Jerusalem as the capital while simultaneously announcing thousands more settlements in what should have been Palestine just really confirms Netanyahu's goals for colonizing what's left of the land, or at least claiming all the good bits.

Even that article skirts around the 'a' word but knows that where they are headed. It seems like the right wing there thinks they can take the good bits and then parcel off Gaza and the Bantustans to Egypt, Jordan and Syria, but there's pretty much zero chance they'd take them on. Gaza is near total collapse, with its aquifer almost depleted and 1/3 of its farm land lost as 'buffer zone'. It really is a giant death camp now.

Its just incredibly stupid thinking, the right wing just keeps wanting to take more and more bits without seeing that they've created an apartheid state. An apartheid state in which Palestinians are already the demographic majority, with another 5 million refugees in camps waiting for their chance to return.

Trump's an idiot but he's really doing Netanyahu's requests here, through Kushner. Israel really should be questioning where their leaders are taking them.
 

FAST

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Trump gave a push,... and everybody's,... predictable response, just confirmed that there is realistically only one solution,... two states.

Anybody who thinks other wise,... is Anti-Semitic,... and simply wants Israel destroyed..
 

cye

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Trump gave a push,... and everybody's,... predictable response, just confirmed that there is realistically only one solution,... two states.

Anybody who thinks other wise,... is Anti-Semitic,... and simply wants Israel destroyed..
The problem is that those in charge in Israel have made sure there is no two state solution.

“The Holocaust must lead us to think about our public life, and even moroe so, it must lead all those who can - not just those who want - to bear public responsibility. Because If there is something that scares us about the memory of the Holocaust, it is identifying nauseating processes that occurred in Europe in general and Germany in particular, 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and finding evidence of their presence here among us, today, in 2016.”

Maj. Gen. Yair Golan
 

Butler1000

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The problem is that those in charge in Israel have made sure there is no two state solution.

“The Holocaust must lead us to think about our public life, and even moroe so, it must lead all those who can - not just those who want - to bear public responsibility. Because If there is something that scares us about the memory of the Holocaust, it is identifying nauseating processes that occurred in Europe in general and Germany in particular, 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and finding evidence of their presence here among us, today, in 2016.”

Maj. Gen. Yair Golan
The problem is the Palestinian leadership has dicked around for 70 years. And the only real bargaining chip they had was sympathy.

The sympathy I think is now over. The world is going to move on and make decisions now and not worry about them.
 

Frankfooter

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Trump gave a push,... and everybody's,... predictable response, just confirmed that there is realistically only one solution,... two states.

Anybody who thinks other wise,... is Anti-Semitic,... and simply wants Israel destroyed..
So now stating that the two state solution is dead is anti-semitic?
That's a bummer, you've got an entire anti-semitic party in government there.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-he...state-solution-show-their-growing-confidence/

Cye, I didn't address your concerns about another intifada. From what I've seen its possible but not too likely, Israeli responses have been so brutal to the last few.
Palestinians also seem to have smartened up and are now protesting more while trying to publicize their cause through BDS, which stands to really effect much more change then an intifada.

They've already got their own Rosa Parks.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/ahed-tamimi-palestinian-rosa-parks-180114114647043.html

And now you've got Amnesty fighting for her release.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ase-teenage-palestinian-activist-ahed-tamimi/
 

cye

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So now stating that the two state solution is dead is anti-semitic?
That's a bummer, you've got an entire anti-semitic party in government there.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/at-he...state-solution-show-their-growing-confidence/

Cye, I didn't address your concerns about another intifada. From what I've seen its possible but not too likely, Israeli responses have been so brutal to the last few.
Palestinians also seem to have smartened up and are now protesting more while trying to publicize their cause through BDS, which stands to really effect much more change then an intifada.

They've already got their own Rosa Parks.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/ahed-tamimi-palestinian-rosa-parks-180114114647043.html

And now you've got Amnesty fighting for her release.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...ase-teenage-palestinian-activist-ahed-tamimi/

Gaza is becoming increasingly desperate, Hamas faces a threat from ISIS and Abbas’s position weakened. Combined with unemployment and little prospects for economic growth the situation is unlikely to remain stable. Iran and Hezbollah’s ability to influence events may grow as Syria is pacified. Now is the worst time for Trump to upset the status quo with little or no understanding of the conflict.
 

Butler1000

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Gaza is becoming increasingly desperate, Hamas faces a threat from ISIS and Abbas’s position weakened. Combined with unemployment and little prospects for economic growth the situation is unlikely to remain stable. Iran and Hezbollah’s ability to influence events may grow as Syria is pacified. Now is the worst time for Trump to upset the status quo with little or no understanding of the conflict.
The status quo isnt working either. Do you really think after 70 years there will suddenly be a breakthrough by propping up whats there now?

The leadership is corrupt. And no peace is coming soon.
 

jcpro

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Gaza is becoming increasingly desperate, Hamas faces a threat from ISIS and Abbas’s position weakened. Combined with unemployment and little prospects for economic growth the situation is unlikely to remain stable. Iran and Hezbollah’s ability to influence events may grow as Syria is pacified. Now is the worst time for Trump to upset the status quo with little or no understanding of the conflict.
Gaza was never civilized. When Egypt controlled it, they called it a nest if vipers. They would not take it back if you paid them. Neither do Jordanians want anything to do with Palestinians or the Lebanese, for that matter.
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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The problem is that those in charge in Israel have made sure there is no two state solution.

“The Holocaust must lead us to think about our public life, and even moroe so, it must lead all those who can - not just those who want - to bear public responsibility. Because If there is something that scares us about the memory of the Holocaust, it is identifying nauseating processes that occurred in Europe in general and Germany in particular, 70, 80 and 90 years ago, and finding evidence of their presence here among us, today, in 2016.”

Maj. Gen. Yair Golan
The General is not "in charge".

But considering the shit holes that surround his country,... one can understand where he is coming from.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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You should check the maps with settlements, its really too late for any kind of two state solution,...
You should check the map that Olmert showed Abbas. It offered a COMPLETELY contiguous Palestinian state including a land corridor to Gaza.

Abbas walked away and never came back, simply because after years of propaganda, he knew the Palestinian people would reject the acceptance of Israel's existence.
A good analysis of the offer and Abbas' recent swan song diatribe.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas...h-the-jews-he-believes-his-own-lies-about-us/
 

basketcase

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The problem is that those in charge in Israel have made sure there is no two state solution. ...
Some definitely have but the Palestinians have rejected peace when Israel had leaders willing to make the deal. The settler and religious zionist movement are a factor politically but they are a small part of the body politic and would be overruled by those who endorse peace.
 

Frankfooter

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Gaza is becoming increasingly desperate, Hamas faces a threat from ISIS and Abbas’s position weakened. Combined with unemployment and little prospects for economic growth the situation is unlikely to remain stable. Iran and Hezbollah’s ability to influence events may grow as Syria is pacified. Now is the worst time for Trump to upset the status quo with little or no understanding of the conflict.
True, though the only good thing to come of it is the end of the farce of Israeli peace talks. After 2 decades of Oslo talks used as a delaying tactic while Israel colonized more of Palestine only Abbas wants to go back there, not his people. Abbas is a total idiot, by the way.

Now the talk is about what to do with the existing one state solution.
 

cye

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Some definitely have but the Palestinians have rejected peace when Israel had leaders willing to make the deal. The settler and religious zionist movement are a factor politically but they are a small part of the body politic and would be overruled by those who endorse peace.
Perhaps but the cynical political game Bibbi plays destroys that possibility. I fear that the inability to control the settler movement and the bleak prospects for Palestinian youth will lead to another sustained outbreak of violence.
Jerusalem is the de facto Capital of Israel, removing it from the negotiating process serves no purpose unless the goal is a One State solution. I think we both agree that is a horrible prospect.
 

basketcase

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Perhaps but the cynical political game Bibbi plays destroys that possibility. I fear that the inability to control the settler movement and the bleak prospects for Palestinian youth will lead to another sustained outbreak of violence.
Jerusalem is the de facto Capital of Israel, removing it from the negotiating process serves no purpose unless the goal is a One State solution. I think we both agree that is a horrible prospect.
Yes, Bibi is willing to play games and listen to the settler movement simply to stay in power because he sees that there are other feasible parties to challenge him. Recent polls show the possibility of a center-left government so there is hope on that front.

Despite Trump's statement doing nothing but giving another excuse for violence, it changes nothing on the ground. Trump said Jerusalem is Israel's capital. It is. That doesn't exclude Jerusalem from also being the Palestinian capital. That would require negotiations. A couple possible replacements for Netanyahu are openly for a Two State peace but I don't see anyone in the Palestinian body politic that is willing to come out promoting peace with Israel.
 

Frankfooter

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Considering how often you praise Hamas, it's not surprising you are against peace talks.
I'm for real peace, unfortunately Israel used the Oslo accords to stall while they colonized more land.
There were no honest offers for a two state solution.
 
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