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Now it's Aziz Ansari accused in #MeToo witchhunt

john.who.lee

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Jun 3, 2011
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Obviously that's not fair. There will always be victims on both sides. You were falsely accused and the accuser has benefited. There's also female victims who have been harassed and received no justice. I just saw something about Rose McGowan who is one of Weinstein's victims talking about how when she reported things, suddenly her projects were cancelled and she was blackballed.
ok - let's break this one down... since this is looking bad on both sides maybe. first of all i have never done it.

what is bothering i guess is the false accusations and lack of honesty.

ultistar is right about setting back feminism ! totally correct ! watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57R_kHrx10

between "grab them by the pxssy" and blackball them may be no difference... still if they have only one voice like the lady from the link above... well, this means that the movement will die soon in an ash of irrelevance.

frankly ? i would LOVE for a female to come straight to me and say: let's grab a coffee. lick me there... now ! :)
therefore i am all for this movement to actually thrive in the right direction.

but is this actually possible ? and now we are getting straight into psychoanalysis and potentially in the merky waters of religion (Jung one of the fathers of the psychoanalysis was actually a big fan of religion too - just fyi before everybody will start crying...)
 

Aardvark154

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What ever happened to 'No.'

This seems very much an instance of I consented, but now I don't like what we did, so now I state that I felt pressured.
 

sempel

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Feb 23, 2017
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ok - let's break this one down... since this is looking bad on both sides maybe. first of all i have never done it.

what is bothering i guess is the false accusations and lack of honesty.

ultistar is right about setting back feminism ! totally correct ! watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q57R_kHrx10

between "grab them by the pxssy" and blackball them may be no difference... still if they have only one voice like the lady from the link above... well, this means that the movement will die soon in an ash of irrelevance.

frankly ? i would LOVE for a female to come straight to me and say: let's grab a coffee. lick me there... now ! :)
therefore i am all for this movement to actually thrive in the right direction.

but is this actually possible ? and now we are getting straight into psychoanalysis and potentially in the merky waters of religion (Jung one of the fathers of the psychoanalysis was actually a big fan of religion too - just fyi before everybody will start crying...)
Thanks for the vid. Don't know who she is exactly but I thought she spoke well and most of her points were fair and correct. She is incorrect about some of the issues being less important - I don't think some issues should be overlooked in favor of other "more important" or more serious issues but definitely way too much whining and calls for pity.
 

john.who.lee

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Jun 3, 2011
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In other words, false accusations are being used as a power and profitability machine.

There are no "consent laws" that can fix this. Only cameras and solid proof of innocence are surefire protections.

A "yes" behind closed doors can easily become an "I said no" when the regret sets in. There are cases springing up all around where young guys engaged in completely consensual relationships get accused as sexual abusers simply for not wanting or not being able to continue the relationship.



Most people meet their SO either in school or at work. It's some crazy number like 90% of people. It's entirely logical to engage in relationships with people that are in close proximity to you all the time as they likely share similar outlook, goals, finances, educational attainment, and so on. The other 10% that meet at clubs and bars probably also account for a large number of divorces.
true and true SC !!! and yes ... maybe she got her revenge since i did not insisted due to her covered "no" which may have meant: come on a white horse, in your knees and marry me first and then .... we will see...

on top of that ... all these rules seem to be specially made to break the fabric of society... no ?


from another perspective i am very happy with the SPs i've met so far...
 

john.who.lee

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Jun 3, 2011
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Basically the risks outway any benefits. Imagine all the young hot blooded ppl coming into the work force as interns...all hitting on each other....20 years later. They will be suing each other for real misdeeds, perceived misdeeds and out right lies.

How do you tell of the 3....which is what happened and if there is someone that needs to be punished.

The first person to develop a time machine that allows everyone to go back to see what "really happened" will be a billionaire.
without that machine the lawyers and the SPs will make the billions :)
your machine is counter productive in this case and may even break my habits (and i hate that :) :))...
 

LT56

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Feb 16, 2013
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Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader.​


I’m apparently the victim of sexual assault. And if you’re a sexually active woman in the 21st century, chances are that you are, too.
That is what I learned from the “exposé” of Aziz Ansari published this weekend by the feminist website Babe — arguably the worst thing that has happened to the #MeToo movement since it began in October. It transforms what ought to be a movement for women’s empowerment into an emblem for female helplessness.
The headline primes the reader to gird for the very worst: “I went on a date with Aziz Ansari. It turned into the worst night of my life.” Like everyone else, I clicked.
The victim in this 3,000-word story is called “Grace” — not her real name — and her saga with Mr. Ansari began at a 2017 Emmys after-party. As recounted by Grace to the reporter Katie Way, she approached him, but he brushed her off at first. Then they bonded over their devotion to the same vintage camera.

Grace was at the party with someone else, but she and Mr. Ansari exchanged numbers and soon arranged a date in Manhattan.
After arriving at his TriBeCa apartment on the appointed evening — she was “excited,” having carefully chosen her outfit after consulting with friends — they exchanged small talk and drank wine. “It was white,” she said. “I didn’t get to choose and I prefer red, but it was white wine.” Yes, we are apparently meant to read into the nonconsensual wine choice.

They went out to dinner nearby and then returned home to Mr. Ansari’s apartment. As Grace tells it, the actor was far too eager to get back to his place after he paid for dinner: “Like, he got the check and then it was bada-boom, bada-bing, we’re out of there.” Another sign of his apparent boorishness.
Grace complimented Mr. Ansari’s kitchen countertops. The actor then made a move, asking her to sit on the counter. They started kissing. He undressed her and then himself.

In the 30 or so minutes that followed — recounted beat by cringe-inducing beat — they hooked up. Mr. Ansari persistently tried to have penetrative sex with her, and Grace says she was deeply uncomfortable throughout. At various points, she told the reporter, she attempted to voice her hesitation, and that Mr. Ansari ignored her signals.
At last, she uttered the word “no” for the first time during their encounter, to Mr. Ansari’s suggestion that they have sex in front of a mirror. He said: “‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”
They got dressed, sat on the couch and watched “Seinfeld.” She said to him: “You guys are all the same.” He called her an Uber. She cried on the way home. Fin.
If you are wondering what about this evening constituted the “worst night” of Grace’s life, or why it is being framed as a #MeToo story by a feminist website, you probably feel as confused as Mr. Ansari did the next day. “It was fun meeting you last night,” he texted.

“Last night might’ve been fun for you, but it wasn’t for me,” she responded. “You ignored clear nonverbal cues; you kept going with advances. You had to have noticed I was uncomfortable.” He replied with an apology.
Read Grace’s text message again.
Put in other words: I am angry that you weren’t able to read my mind.
It is worth carefully studying Grace’s story. Encoded in it are new yet deeply retrograde ideas about what constitutes consent — and what constitutes sexual violence.
We are told by the reporter that Grace “says she used verbal and nonverbal cues to indicate how uncomfortable and distressed she was.” She adds that “whether Ansari didn’t notice Grace’s reticence or knowingly ignored it is impossible for her to say.” We are told that “he wouldn’t let her move away from him,” in the encounter.

Yet Mr. Ansari, in a statement responding to Grace’s story, said that “by all indications” the encounter was “completely consensual.”
I am a proud feminist, and this is what I thought while reading Grace’s story:
If you are hanging out naked with a man, it’s safe to assume he is going to try to have sex with you.
If the inability to choose a pinot noir over a pinot grigio offends you, you can leave right then and there.
If you don’t like the way your date hustles through paying the check, you can say, “I’ve had a lovely evening and I’m going home now.”

If you go home with him and discover he’s a terrible kisser, say “I’m out.”
If you start to hook up and don’t like the way he smells or the way he talks (or doesn’t talk), end it.
If he pressures you to do something you don’t want to do, use a four-letter word, stand up on your two legs and walk out his door.
Aziz Ansari sounds like he was aggressive and selfish and obnoxious that night. Isn’t it heartbreaking and depressing that men — especially ones who present themselves publicly as feminists — so often act this way in private? Shouldn’t we try to change our broken sexual culture? And isn’t it enraging that women are socialized to be docile and accommodating and to put men’s desires before their own? Yes. Yes. Yes.
But the solution to these problems does not begin with women torching men for failing to understand their “nonverbal cues.” It is for women to be more verbal. It’s to say: “This is what turns me on.” It’s to say “I don’t want to do that.” And, yes, sometimes it means saying piss off.

The single most distressing thing to me about Grace’s story is that the only person with any agency in the story seems to be Aziz Ansari. Grace is merely acted upon.
All of this put me in mind of another piece published this weekend, this one by the novelist and feminist icon Margaret Atwood. “My fundamental position is that women are human beings,” she writes. “Nor do I believe that women are children, incapable of agency or of making moral decisions. If they were, we’re back to the 19th century, and women should not own property, have credit cards, have access to higher education, control their own reproduction or vote. There are powerful groups in North America pushing this agenda, but they are not usually considered feminists.”
Except, increasingly, they are.
Grace’s story was met with so many digital hosannas by young feminists, who insisted that consent is only consent if it is affirmative, active, continuous and — and this is the word most used — enthusiastic. Consent isn’t the only thing they are radically redefining. A recent survey by The Economist/YouGov found that approximately 25 percent of millennial-age American men think asking someone for a drink is harassment. More than a third of millennial men and women say that if a man compliments a woman’s looks it is harassment.
To judge from social media reaction to Grace’s story, they also see a flagrant abuse of power in this sexual encounter. Yes, Mr. Ansari is a wealthy celebrity with a Netflix show. But he had no actual power over Grace — professionally or otherwise. And lumping him in with the same movement that brought down men who ran movie studios and forced themselves on actresses, or the factory floor supervisors who demanded sex from women workers, trivializes what #MeToo first stood for.

I’m sorry Grace had this experience. I too have had lousy romantic encounters, as has every adult woman I know. I have regretted these encounters, and not said anything at all. And I have regretted them and said so, like Grace did. And I know I am lucky that these unpleasant moments were far from being anything approaching assault or rape, or even the worst night of my life.
But the response to Grace’s story makes me think that many of my fellow feminists might insist that my experience was just that, and for me to define it otherwise is nothing more than my internalized misogyny.
There is a useful term for what Grace experienced on her night with Mr. Ansari. It’s called “bad sex.” It sucks.
The feminist answer is to push for a culture in which boys and young men are taught that sex does not have to be pursued like they’re in a porn film, and one in which girls and young women are empowered to be bolder, b********** and louder about what they want. The insidious attempt by some women to criminalize awkward, gross and entitled sex takes women back to the days of smelling salts and fainting couches. That’s somewhere I, for one, don’t want to go.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/01/...arassment.html?referer=https://www.google.ca/


New York Times
Jan 15/18
 

Smallcock

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sempel

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People were predicting this would start to happen even while the #MeToo movement was creating. I think it’s unavoidable but it’s important to be able to have these conversations.
I agree but accusers like Grace do real harm to actual victims. She is getting support from other misguided people who think Ansari did something that was totally wrong when he really didn't. I wasn't there so I have no idea how she acted and all the supposed non-verbal cues but face it, it sounds like he tried, she wasn't having much of it, and he eventually took the hint and just wanted to hang. I'm sure other guys with more entitlement would have argued, kicked and screamed about her teasing, accepting a meal, giving false cues, etc. and would have ended the date right then and there (not the most appropriate reaction but some guys do this). Then he was guilty of being a little stupid in saying he had a nice time when any other guy in the same situation would have been a bit confused and probably ceased contact after what comes across as an awkward or failed date (I don't mean fail as in no sex but fail as in awkward and uncomfortable).

I applaud the person who wrote the NY Times piece. She gets it. There's a huge difference between being uncomfortable because you were forced, said no, and your pleas to stop were generally ignored so you relented versus giving unclear, non-verbal cues, and feeling regret the next day (wasn't she supposedly engaged at the time?) and turning it into a rape scenario. I can't remember which movie or book this is copying but there's definitely something where a girl chooses to have sex and when her fiancé finds out she then claims rape. There was definitely an SVU or Law and Order CI episode where I've seen this happen.

And I made this point before and I'm glad the writer also did too - MeToo is about workplace harassment and assault. Many of the victims have suffered because of a power dynamic between a boss or a coworker and there is generally no recourse because the system is not in their favor.
 

ultistar

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Apr 18, 2009
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I've been folowing this story about Aziz and just found this https://youtu.be/y4bAULTwAJU She went all out on the accuser .
Slow. Clap. She slayed it.

As an update, it’s been four days since this news broke and no other women have come forward with a #metoo (as I’m sure she had hoped when she says she was sharing her story so that no other women are made to feel this way.)

If a few others came forward we may feel differently, but as of now this was an emotional unstable, attention seeking, entitled princess who made anonymous accusations to ruin a guy’s career. Cuz she was feeling regret about a bad date.

For those of you who think this is only for celebs picking up 23yo chicks, imagine if the HR manager in your office called you in and said you have an anon accusation of sexual misconduct.

That’s what they want.
 

Smallcock

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The desire for and response to casual sex is very different between men and women because our biological libido (among many other traits) differ substantially. That's why, in the post-sexual revolution era where casual sex is the norm (thanks to birth control technology and changes in social attitudes about sex and personal freedom), this issue isn't going to go away any time soon. The fallout will be continued social deterioration.
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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I actually like the way this was handled before she went to the press. I also don't like that she is remaining anonymous.

They had the encounter and she expressed her upset. To which he replied supportively. To then take this action of bringing it to the press because she didn't like that he was supporting a movement like Time's Up, is beyond ridiculous. If anything it shows that he learned from his encounter with her and grew from it. At least that is what I see.

This is again why I will preach and preach and preach - ASK and get a yes, instead of waiting for a No.

If men and women would adopt this new way of thinking and acting, these situations would not happen. We need to follow places like Cali with their affirmative consent laws.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ns-yes-california-law/?utm_term=.517f0a0a1d45
Maybe women should learn to mouth the word "no". Even if they say yes, they can turn around and claim they were high or drunk and their consent is voided. I was usually quite blunt about sex, but believe me, that bluntness was usually greeted with disdain and offence. " You think I'm just a slut?" They preferred to play the more romantic role where "it" just happens. Those days are apparently gone.... replaced by signed contracts and breathalyzers I suppose.
 

john.who.lee

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Jun 3, 2011
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Maybe women should learn to mouth the word "no". Even if they say yes, they can turn around and claim they were high or drunk and their consent is voided. I was usually quite blunt about sex, but believe me, that bluntness was usually greeted with disdain and offence. " You think I'm just a slut?" They preferred to play the more romantic role where "it" just happens. Those days are apparently gone.... replaced by signed contracts and breathalyzers I suppose.
very funny.

"Honey... come sign here for all these acronyms (FS, DATY, BBBJ, BLS, GREEK...) and the fine print that says that you are not under the effect of any substance which may impair your judgement... or better yet: blow here too, just to be sure !"

"Why baby ? Don't you love/trust me anymore? Haven't I signed yesterday ?!?!"

Him: i think this is already escalating ... she may scream that she has second thoughts or worse she was raped ... going to see a SP (she will sign... or not ?).

In the Internet era the Apocalypse is run by useful idiots (another term invented by Stalin)... #IdiotApocalypse now?

Legal question: do the SP agencies have a "No is No" or "Yes is Yes" policy ? i would prefer to avoid have a (paid) bureaucratic FS :)
... No is No works better for me. Please advise.
 
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Jasmine Raine

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Jul 28, 2014
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Maybe women should learn to mouth the word "no". Even if they say yes, they can turn around and claim they were high or drunk and their consent is voided. I was usually quite blunt about sex, but believe me, that bluntness was usually greeted with disdain and offence. " You think I'm just a slut?" They preferred to play the more romantic role where "it" just happens. Those days are apparently gone.... replaced by signed contracts and breathalyzers I suppose.

Hey - whatever you have to do to protect yourself against shit like this.

I get it. It sucks. I speak out as much as I can regarding the difference between a bad date and sexual assault. And trust me, I explain to a lot of women that there are plenty of men who have regretful sex all the time but they don't scream rape.

I am glad that CNN called out this women out. I wish her name was publicly mentioned. I wish a lot of things with this movement but to fault me for for my belief that for a man it is safer to get an actual yes - then I question your seriousiness with this post.

Yes women can change that yes to a no after the fact. I agree. Yes there are false accusers. I agree.

But do you really think that it is safer for you as a man to just wait to hear a no? In this climate regarding sexual assault, do you really want to wait and rely on hearing a no. She can say she said no anyway.

However, you personally, as a man, in the monent, have a better chance of knowing exactly what the woman wants if you ask her. And you have a good retelling of the situation when you say "I asked her here and here if she wanted to proceed and she said " yes". Cops will be able to work with that better then "well I didn't hear her say no".

It is not rocket science but hey - you keep playing Russian roulette and just wait for a no. No problem.
 

ultistar

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Apr 18, 2009
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For maybe 2 decades both sexes abided by the no-means-no mantra. That became the de facto line for sexual assault.

Now Sweden has adopted the expressed positive consent which goes beyond the no means no line.

Now I’m actually really cool with that cuz there’s no ambiguity. But the problem is when some women go by the positive consent and others go by no means no.

How the F are guys supposed to read mixed messages after 20+ years of the no means no standard. And don’t get me started about non-verbal cues. God gave you a voice, use it.
 

doggystyle99

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May 23, 2010
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I've been folowing this story about Aziz and just found this https://youtu.be/y4bAULTwAJU She went all out on the accuser .
Good for this News woman to speak out against this bullshit.
It's one thing to speak out against rape, sexual assault and sexual harassment but the fact that this unidentified girl "Grace" is smearing Aziz Ansari's name due to the fact that she did not speak her mind and stop what they were doing at the moment is just plain ridiculous. I can't understand how anyone is supporting her in any way and why her identity is being protected. As there are no issues with outing men who are accused (not convicted) there should also be no reason to out these women who smear with false or unjustified accusations.
 

sempel

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Feb 23, 2017
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For maybe 2 decades both sexes abided by the no-means-no mantra. That became the de facto line for sexual assault.

Now Sweden has adopted the expressed positive consent which goes beyond the no means no line.

Now I’m actually really cool with that cuz there’s no ambiguity. But the problem is when some women go by the positive consent and others go by no means no.

How the F are guys supposed to read mixed messages after 20+ years of the no means no standard. And don’t get me started about non-verbal cues. God gave you a voice, use it.
Positive consent places the onus on the MAN, not the woman. So, if you want to go down on a woman, you ask first and get a "yes" before proceeding. "No" places the onus on the female to say no when the guy goes for it or during if she wants to stop. So, I'm not sure why there's any problem. Do you think a woman will not answer "yes" when asked and will leave it up to you to figure it out and then maybe say "no?"

In both cases, it's clearly about communicating. Non-verbal cues means NOTHING and may not be noticed or misinterpreted. So yes, unless you cannot speak ladies, use your voice when you want to say no or stop.
 

ultistar

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Apr 18, 2009
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Positive consent places the onus on the MAN, not the woman. So, if you want to go down on a woman, you ask first and get a "yes" before proceeding. "No" places the onus on the female to say no when the guy goes for it or during if she wants to stop. So, I'm not sure why there's any problem. Do you think a woman will not answer "yes" when asked and will leave it up to you to figure it out and then maybe say "no?"

In both cases, it's clearly about communicating. Non-verbal cues means NOTHING and may not be noticed or misinterpreted. So yes, unless you cannot speak ladies, use your voice when you want to say no or stop.
Given your capacity for verbal communication as demonstrated by your voluminous posts, not surprising that it’s no problem for you. But most guys go with the flow until they hear a “no”.
 
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