Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan

Insidious Von said:

Is the OTPP as hedge fund? It certainly seemed that way when they owned MLSE. Steve Stavro was facing bankruptcy when the OTTP gave him a lifeline. Then they stripped down the Leafs and Raptors for profits. It was all perfectly legit if unscrupulous.

Currently the fund has $175 Billion in assets, making it the world's most lucrative pension fund.

http://business.financialpost.com/executive/careers/teachers-should-earn-their-high-pay

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Lets see, the OTPP is the worlds most lucrative pension plan and Ontario is the world largest non sovereign debtor
http://business.financialpost.com/n...e-worlds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower

While the plan has been well managed and much of the value is via returns , it is troubling how teachers have become enriched while the province has become a financial basket case
Cause and effect?

JohnLarue said:

Lets see, the OTPP is the worlds most lucrative pension plan and Ontario is the world largest non sovereign debtor
http://business.financialpost.com/n...e-worlds-most-indebted-sub-sovereign-borrower

While the plan has been well managed and much of the value is via returns , it is troubling how teachers have become enriched while the province has become a financial basket case
Cause and effect?

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Maybe the province should hire top notch managers like the teachers did. My only ill feeling towards the teacher's plan or the other big plans is jealousy. If they opened up their plan to non-teachers I'd be happy to contribute 12% of my pay.


And I can't wait for you to explain what cause and effect the teacher's pension plan has on the province (other than being an economic engine)?

I think the teachers should donate their pension fund to the province to reduce the provincial debt. At least get it back to the amount when the Liberals took over Ontario after the Conservatives left.

Then they can adopt a DC plan and move forward.

basketcase said:

Maybe the province should hire top notch managers like the teachers did. My only ill feeling towards the teacher's plan or the other big plans is jealousy. If they opened up their plan to non-teachers I'd be happy to contribute 12% of my pay.

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Yes the managers at OTPP deserve a lot of credit, they have performed very well for their clients

And I can't wait for you to explain what cause and effect the teacher's pension plan has on the province (other than being an economic engine)?

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It was a question, not a statement


however, it does raise the stinging question why are education costs the second highest expenditure in the provincial budget.
As teachers become enriched ( $87,000/ year $100,000 after benefits) the province debt keeps climbing
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/allan-richarz-ontarios-teachers-are-overpaid

And we do not appear to be getting good value for $100k
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...36124763/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&
http://www.ctvnews.ca/students-not-prepared-for-university-says-survey-1.436329
https://beta.theglobeandmail.com/ne...36162866/?ref=http://www.theglobeandmail.com&

educators have grown increasingly frustrated that too many students leave high school not fully prepared for university or college, even though they may be labelled as top performers.

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http://www.universityaffairs.ca/opi...taught-its-high-school-students-not-to-think/

Has Ontario taught its high-school students not to think?

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Perhaps a change is required where the focus is on properly preparing students for the challenges of life rather than the current focus which appears to be enriching teachers via debt financing

Ref said:

I think the teachers should donate their pension fund to the province to reduce the provincial debt. At least get it back to the amount when the Liberals took over Ontario after the Conservatives left.

Then they can adopt a DC plan and move forward.

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Should we all be forced to donate our investments from the past 14 years too.

And seriously, why should anyone be punished for hiring successful managers?

JohnLarue said:

...
It was a question, not a statement

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A leading one.

however, it does raise the stinging question why are education costs the second highest expenditure in the provincial budget.

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Could it be because Canada sees education as essential to the development of society and has one of the top rated education systems in the world?

The rest of your post is just ridiculous bitching about teachers that we've seen here repeatedly.


p.s. Your post shows that teachers want higher standards; it is the government bureaucrats that are mandating things like no-fail elementary schools.

basketcase said:

A leading one.

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And you bit on it !

Could it be because Canada sees education as essential to the development of society

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Absolutely
Education is the single most important thing a society can do to better itself
Why did Britain rule most of the world in the Victorian era?
Because Henry IIIV implemented education for all of his people a few centuries before, while Spain and France remained content to only educated the elite

Because it is so important, it drives me absolutely nuts to see the focus be on enriching teachers and not on preparing students for life

and has one of the top rated education systems in the world?

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Rated??
Rated by who?
A good rating and a bus ticket will get you downtown
The real value is if students are prepared for life after being taught by teachers
And it looks like that's not happening

The rest of your post is just ridiculous bitching about teachers that we've seen here repeatedly.

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Gee, too bad it appears I was correct, repeatedly.
We are not getting good value from teachers.
students are ill prepared for college, university and apparently not handling math very well. Math is pretty important .

p.s. Your post shows that teachers want higher standards; it is the government bureaucrats that are mandating things like no-fail elementary schools.

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Oh boy!
In the real world if you cost an organization $100,000 a year and do not produce the desired result, what happens?
I will give you a hint, it happens a whole lot quicker if you start blaming the organization

JohnLarue said:

Oh boy!
In the real world if you cost an organization $100,000 a year and do not produce the desired result, what happens?
I will give you a hint, it happens a whole lot quicker if you start blaming the organization

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Elected bureaucrats set policy, teachers enforce it and teach the curriculum they are hired to teach.
No fail schooling did not come from the teachers.

That came from the move to call education a product, and once it became a product then students felt they could complain they didn't get value (a degree) for the money they paid out. Its the business model being applied to education that has fucked it up.

JohnLarue said:

And you bit on it !

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So you admit it was trolling bullshit and not a question.

I'm still waiting to hear how you think the teacher's pension plan is hurting our economy.

Rated??
Rated by who?

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The OECD
https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

But not surprising that you want to avoid numbers and data when it jeopardizes your bullshit.

And yes, the rest of your post is just typical bitching and whining. It's even funnier because you are bitching about governmental policy and admit the teachers don't like it yet you somehow still pretend it's the teachers fault.

In the real world, employees who don't follow corporate policy are fired. Also in the real world you pay for results and the results are our education system is excellent.

Frankfooter said:

Elected bureaucrats set policy, teachers enforce it and teach the curriculum they are hired to teach.
No fail schooling did not come from the teachers.

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You need to choose one argument or the other
a) Teachers are vitally important to ensure our kids education, thus justifying their grossly excessive compensation
or
b) The teachers impact on our kids education is limited by the bureaucrats. (If this is the case there is no justification for each one of them costing 100 K)
You can not argue both

That came from the move to call education a product, and once it became a product then students felt they could complain they didn't get value (a degree) for the money they paid out. Its the business model being applied to education that has fucked it up.

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So the students lose, the taxpayer lose and teachers are enriched while sun tanning in the summer
And according to you that is entirely the fault of the bureaucrats???
Exactly who did you think you were fooling?

basketcase said:

So you admit it was trolling bullshit and not a question.

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Nope
There was a question mark , so it was a question
I have no control over how others will respond
You chose the confrontational route

I'm still waiting to hear how you think the teacher's pension plan is hurting our economy.

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I never said OTTP was hurting our economy. In fact I believe they invest a significant amount of $ in Ontario

the issue is teachers are becoming enriched while the province sinks further and further in unsustainable debt in order to enrich said teachers
we can not afford them

The OECD
https://www.oecd.org/pisa/pisa-2015-results-in-focus.pdf

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But not surprising that you want to avoid numbers and data when it jeopardizes your bullshit.

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numbers and data are of limited value if the conclusion drawn from them white washes the real story
In this case the real story is our kids are not well prepared once they leave high school

And yes, the rest of your post is just typical bitching and whining. It's even funnier because you are bitching about governmental policy and admit the teachers don't like it yet you somehow still pretend it's the teachers fault.

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Well there is a problem, and teachers are compensated well in excess of the value they provide, so yeah they do need to be accountable

In the real world, employees who don't follow corporate policy are fired.

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It is not about following corporate or organizational policy
It is about the end result
A salesman can fill out all the required sales call reports and make his required number of sales calls , but if he does not........ well bye bye

Also in the real world you pay for results and the results are our education system is excellent.

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??
How can you state our education system is excellent when it has been clearly shown that graduates are not prepared for college, university or life ?

JohnLarue said:

You need to choose one argument or the other
a) Teachers are vitally important to ensure our kids education, thus justifying their grossly excessive compensation
or
b) The teachers impact on our kids education is limited by the bureaucrats. (If this is the case there is no justification for each one of them costing 100 K)
You can not argue both

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Teachers and education are important.
The curriculum, as set by bureaucrats, is also important.
Arbitrary statements, like both of those can't be important at the same time, are unimportant.

JohnLarue said:

Nope
There was a question mark , so it was a question
I have no control over how others will respond
You chose the confrontational route



I never said OTTP was hurting our economy. In fact I believe they invest a significant amount of $ in Ontario

the issue is teachers are becoming enriched while the province sinks further and further in unsustainable debt in order to enrich said teachers
we can not afford them

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Again you are claiming the teachers pensions are the cause of provincial problems. You really are a joke.

And it is amusing that a conservative wants a private investment plan confiscated.

numbers and data are of limited value if the conclusion drawn from them white washes the real story
In this case the real story is our kids are not well prepared once they leave high school

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I sure as hell prefer numbers and data to your uninformed opinion.

And yes, the international testing shows our system is excellent. Of course there can be improvements but again, that is at the governmental policy level.

Your continuing efforts to blame teachers for governmental policy really does expose that you are far more interested in ranting than you are in actual facts.
Teachers don't decide what the curriculum is and teachers don't decide not to fail elementary kids. they have no choice in the matter. And you are making a good case why teachers deserve their pay as they do their best to educate despite a system that hamstrings them in.

Frankfooter said:

Teachers and education are important.
The curriculum, as set by bureaucrats, is also important.
Arbitrary statements, like both of those can't be important at the same time, are unimportant.

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You are arguing that teachers are worth the Billions we pay them, yet you say they are ineffective because of the bureaucrats.
Then the excess we pay teachers is not producing the desired result
Therefore no need to compensate them excessively

The status quo is not sustainable
Pretty straightforward logic

Insidious Von said:

That educators are not preparing student for the adult world is nothing new. I've had several top performers from my old high school ask me for loans.

And yes the OTPP has done an excellent job of diversifying its investments, but it may have no choice but to give back part of it's surplus. That precedent was set by Paul Martin when he exproprated the surplus of PSAC and CUPW to pay down the national debt. If Patrick Brown becomes Premier, there's no guarantee he wont do the same. History always repeats itself, you can't be richer than the King.

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Despite believing that teachers compensation is both excessive and irresponsible, I would not support such a thief.
Teachers have contributed to this plan in good faith and it has been managed (very well) for their benefit.
Those funds are the property of the teachers , not the province
Above all else we must respect property rights

I can not say with 100% certainty , however I believe the province does match a % of contribution. Putting an end that practise may be appropriate
In addition, many pensions have a deficit issue despite excellent investment performance
Relieving the province of this obligation would also be sound move given the mess of the provinces finances (nice work, Granny Wynn, Dalton !)

basketcase said:

Again you are claiming the teachers pensions are the cause of provincial problems. You really are a joke.

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Again I am not claiming the teachers pensions are the cause of Ontario's financial mess
The excess of the overall teachers compensation is however a significant cause
teachers are becoming enriched while the province sinks further and further in unsustainable debt in order to enrich said teachers

And it is amusing that a conservative wants a private investment plan confiscated.

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I would never ever support any expropriation of assets by government

I sure as hell prefer numbers and data to your uninformed opinion.

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Uninformed opinion?
I guess multiple articles stating Ontario's high school graduates are ill prepared for life is not good enough for you
You prefer to believe in ratings where one group of teachers accesses and rates the success of other teachers ?
You appear to be content to pay billions every year to produce a bunch of moron graduates so long as teachers receive a good rating?

And yes, the international testing shows our system is excellent. Of course there can be improvements but again, that is at the governmental policy level.

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Graduates who cant handle math is not the definition of excellent
At 100K per year you do not pass the buck in the real world
That infuriates me

Your continuing efforts to blame teachers for governmental policy really does expose that you are far more interested in ranting than you are in actual facts.

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And your continued efforts to classify a failing system as excellent and blaming governmental policy exposes that you are far more interested in shuffling blame than you are in actual facts

Case in point:
you say the system is excellent and at the same time blame government policy
If the system is excellent there should be nothing which requires the shuffling of blame
excellent is not a word which should be used when describing our so very important educational/ teacher enrichment system

Teachers don't decide what the curriculum is and teachers don't decide not to fail elementary kids. they have no choice in the matter.

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hence they are ineffective and do not warrant a cost of 100K

And you are making a good case why teachers deserve their pay as they do their best to educate despite a system that hamstrings them in.

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At 100K / year doing their best is not good enough
in the real world there would be changes that is for sure

JohnLarue said:

You are arguing that teachers are worth the Billions we pay them, yet you say they are ineffective because of the bureaucrats.
Then the excess we pay teachers is not producing the desired result
Therefore no need to compensate them excessively

The status quo is not sustainable
Pretty straightforward logic

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Teachers are doing an excellent job teaching the curriculum they are given within the rules they are mandated.
If there are issues with the education system then you need to fault those who set the rules and punish the right wing politicians who tried to put in a business model into education.
Like you.

They are the ones at fault.

Frankfooter said:

Teachers are doing an excellent job teaching the curriculum they are given within the rules they are mandated.
If there are issues with the education system then you need to fault those who set the rules and punish the right wing politicians who tried to put in a business model into education.
Like you.

They are the ones at fault.

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In the real world you do not get to pass the buck if you cost your organization $100K

Teachers are doing an excellent job teaching the curriculum they are given within the rules they are mandated.

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Yet they are still producing graduates who are not prepared for life ahead. That is NOT an excellent job!!!!

So exactly what value are they providing to our society?
Compensation and value have to be linked

If as you say it is the system that is failing, blow it up and start over with the objectives of
1. properly prepare the kids for life,
2. ensuring value obtained is aligned with the costs and
3. ensuring our education spend does not continue to expand the unsustainable amount of debt Ontario has assumed

Enriching teachers should not be an objective or the result