Because they only work 10/12 of the yearWhy are you "NORMALIZING" teacher salary..... by that rationale a surgeon or lawyer should have their "real" pay scaled up to a 40h week?
Clearly you have no idea of what salary means. To discuss the amount of time they spend working is a moot point.
????To discuss the amount of time they spend working is a moot point.
https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/five-surprising-jobs-that-pay-six-figure-salaries/
Teachers 83KWell right there you have the average taxpayer working 20% more , so that is not an apples to apples comparisonhttps://www.livingin-canada.com/work-salaries-wages-canada.html
Average male/female makes 27 to 23 per hour.... So lets call it 25 x 40 hours x 50 weeks = 50K
The average Canadian taxpayer makes low 40sSo 1.6 x is the real difference..... which is again not shocking when that person has 2 degrees, 80+% average, worked 8 years, substitute taught for 4 years before that, plus teaching experiences to put on their application.
So it is 2.5 times
And that does not account for the $13 K in benefits , like the government kicker into their pension plan
It makes ever sense in the worldYou're inflating the difference by "normalizing" which makes zero sense.... your point is about the cost to tax payers and you are billing them for a price that is not real.
Do it the other way. Lets give everyone the summer off
Average guy makes $42 K *10/12 = $ 38 K
38 * 2.5 = $87 K
So they are comped at least 2.5 times the average taxpayer
You can not claim those 50 people for every teacher as their tax also have to pay for health care ,police, highways and the other unions etcYou are also making a 1 to 1 comparison which also makes no sense because there's 10 million plus tax payers and somewhere around 200K teachers..... so sure they make 1.7x more but there's 50x more people paying taxes.
Its a rather myopic world you live in
Yeah get back to us when they make zero use of any of the other services , infrastructure our taxes supportNot to mention that teacher is paying taxes so the actual cost is less as they help to pay their own salary.
By your logic anyone who pays taxes is entitled to a $100 K in compensation
You left out the timing
That message is four years old
I could be wrong, but I do not recall any major curriculum announcements in the last four years
So what was the conclusion / recommendations from all . ?
something in the way math is taught has led to disappointing resultsat a news conference on Wednesday at which she announced plans for a major reform to the school curriculum, Ms. Wynne said something in the way math is taught has led to disappointing results and the subject will be the first to be revamped.
You guys can start blaming and pointing fingers nowIn Ontario, parents and some educators have criticized Ms. Wynne's government for not doing enough to prevent math scores from falling. The province injected $60-million into the system last year to add math-specialist teachers to every school and additional training for staff.
It may be too early to see a return on that investment, but the latest standardized test results showed no improvement year over year. For the second year in a row, half of Grade 6 students failed to meet provincial standards in math in the 2016-17 academic year, according to results released last week. That was down from 57 per cent four years ago.
Again we have been over this.... well educated people with high marks who carry out an important job deserve good pay.... so not everyone, but some people.https://careers.workopolis.com/advice/five-surprising-jobs-that-pay-six-figure-salaries/
Well right there you have the average taxpayer working 20% more , so that is not an apples to apples comparison
The average Canadian taxpayer makes low 40s
So it is 2.5 times
And that does not account for the $13 K in benefits , like the government kicker into their pension plan
It makes ever sense in the world
Do it the other way. Lets give everyone the summer off
Average guy makes $42 K *10/12 = $ 38 K
38 * 2.5 = $87 K
So they are comped at least 2.5 times the average taxpayer
You can not claim those 50 people for every teacher as their tax also have to pay for health care ,police, highways and the other unions etc
Its a rather myopic world you live in
Yeah get back to us when they make zero use of any of the other services , infrastructure our taxes support
By your logic anyone who pays taxes is entitled to a $100 K in compensation
hours of work is a complete waste of time. at the end of the day we are looking at annual salary.
if you are going to add benefits then you need to subtract taxes, contributions to benefits etc.
and those 50x people yes the pay for everything.... that's how taxes work. what it means is each Ontarian is paying 2K in taxes to pay for teachers the rest of their taxes goes for everything else. that is far cheaper than paying for private school. if everyone didn't chip in 2K then only the rich would be educated and that is not good for the country.
As far as CRA is concerned the teacher made 87K and joe made 40-50K depending on your source.
I do agree that an extra 10% should be added to the average teacher to account for the top up of pension. I think the rest of their benefits comes out of their pocket.
But to choose 42K is yet another example of choosing the number that best suits you. I've seen numbers between 42 and 50K reported so at the very least we should choose a number in the middle. Regardless, like I said the cost is split amongst roughly 50 people so a person making 45K probably pays around 15K in taxes which still leaves 13K for all the other costs you guys pointed out.
What JL wants is something for nothing. If you had to pay for your own health care and education it would be more than what is actually taken out of your taxes.
And he keeps talking about accountability and lack there of..... well I provided stats to show that PRIVATE schools which should have the ultimate in accountability are not doing a better job than the public system that accuses of being broken. I mean with the public sector full of old uncaring teachers shouldn't the private have their pick of the best and brightest coming out of teachers college with the freedom to hire and fire at will?
Another way to look at why we shouldn't scale up a teacher salary from 10 month to 12 months to compare to the average person is that when the budget is laid out the dollar amount set aside is based on 10 months of teaching. So the increase based on a 12 month work schedule is phantom money that was never on the books nor coming out of anyone's pocket.
You brush off two degrees as common but only 64% of Canadians have training/schooling beyond high school. And only 25% have at least one university degree. If you look at class sizes of undergraduate classes vs graduate class/professional degrees you'll see it is much smaller meaning a smaller fraction of graduates are working on more than one degree.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/as-sa/99-012-x/99-012-x2011001-eng.cfm#a2
Wow you are quoting a liberal politician?!!!???? That's wrong on so many levels. First of all how much does she know about the system? Second she is a politician so every word is chosen to please as many people as possible. Third, there are serious questions regarding her truthfulness/character.September 6, 2017
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wynne-ontario-math-curriculum-changes/article36192881/
Wynne acknowledges problems with Ontario’s math curriculum, vows ‘broader refresh’
something in the way math is taught has led to disappointing results
You guys can start blaming and pointing fingers now
Do not leave anyone out. less they feel slighted
Deserve ?Again we have been over this.... well educated people with high marks who carry out an important job deserve good pay.... so not everyone, but some people.
Lets just focus on the months for nowhours of work is a complete waste of time. at the end of the day we are looking at annual salary.
Too funny , a loonie leftie is looking for deductions ?????if you are going to add benefits then you need to subtract taxes, contributions to benefits etc.
But you were trying to attribute those 50 solely to teachersand those 50x people yes the pay for everything.... that's how taxes work. what it means is each Ontarian is paying 2K in taxes to pay for teachers the rest of their taxes goes for everything else. that is far cheaper than paying for private school. if everyone didn't chip in 2K then only the rich would be educated and that is not good for the country.
The CRA is not relevant when comparing compensation. (We all pay taxes and as you have pointed out it is a progressive tax, so no credit for paying more tax)As far as CRA is concerned the teacher made 87K and joe made 40-50K depending on your source.
Are you nuts ?I do agree that an extra 10% should be added to the average teacher to account for the top up of pension. I think the rest of their benefits comes out of their pocket.
You should stop the nickel and dimeingBut to choose 42K is yet another example of choosing the number that best suits you. I've seen numbers between 42 and 50K reported so at the very least we should choose a number in the middle. Regardless, like I said the cost is split amongst roughly 50 people so a person making 45K probably pays around 15K in taxes which still leaves 13K for all the other costs you guys pointed out.
No I expect tax dollars to be managed responsiblyWhat JL wants is something for nothing. If you had to pay for your own health care and education it would be more than what is actually taken out of your taxes.
Stats?And he keeps talking about accountability and lack there of..... well I provided stats to show that PRIVATE schools which should have the ultimate in accountability are not doing a better job than the public system that accuses of being broken. I mean with the public sector full of old uncaring teachers shouldn't the private have their pick of the best and brightest coming out of teachers college with the freedom to hire and fire at will?
Your logic is really flawed as you honestly believe someone will believe this tripe.Another way to look at why we shouldn't scale up a teacher salary from 10 month to 12 months to compare to the average person is that when the budget is laid out the dollar amount set aside is based on 10 months of teaching. So the increase based on a 12 month work schedule is phantom money that was never on the books nor coming out of anyone's pocket.
It is not worth the 2.5 times the training for the average taxpayerYou brush off two degrees as common but only 64% of Canadians have training/schooling beyond high school.
Look , what could they command out in the real world with a 3 year BA and two years of clown college? - maybe $55K, if they could find work with those credentialsAnd only 25% have at least one university degree. If you look at class sizes of undergraduate classes vs graduate class/professional degrees you'll see it is much smaller meaning a smaller fraction of graduates are working on more than one degree.
I told you the finger pointing would start soonWow you are quoting a liberal politician?!!!???? That's wrong on so many levels. First of all how much does she know about the system? Second she is a politician so every word is chosen to please as many people as possible. Third, there are serious questions regarding her truthfulness/character.
Both you and Wynne fail to understand that the grade 6 math test deems a pass as 70% when typically 50% is a pass. This means the numbers appear worse than they really are. But if half the kids are getting 70+ that's pretty good in most people's books especially when you consider..... that ESL, special ed kids still have to write and absent kids count as zeroes.
Weren't you also questioning the validity of tests? How are you able to dismiss the ones that give Canada a favourable ranking meanwhile you INCORRECTLY interpret the results and accept this test?
Wow. The government says their curriculum needs improvement and you use the article to claim that the problem is really that the teachers are bad.September 6, 2017
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/wynne-ontario-math-curriculum-changes/article36192881/
Wynne acknowledges problems with Ontario’s math curriculum, vows ‘broader refresh’
something in the way math is taught has led to disappointing results
You guys can start blaming and pointing fingers now
Do not leave anyone out. less they feel slighted
# 1. I did not say anything about teachers accountabilityWow. The government says their curriculum needs improvement and you use the article to claim that the problem is really that the teachers are bad.
Yes, because I can read the article without taking quotes out of context. The only sane conclusion: they are changing the curriculum because they see the current curriculum as a problem....
#2. You immediate blame the curriculum when she indicated "something in the way math is taught"...
But they spent $60 MM on the curriculum and the results got worse, so the only sane conclusion is to look to see if the problem is elsewhereYes, because I can read the article without taking quotes out of context. The only sane conclusion: they are changing the curriculum because they see the current curriculum as a problem.
Wow, you nailed it one try.But they spent $60 MM on the curriculum and the results got worse, so the only sane conclusion is to look to see if the problem is elsewhere
"something in the way math is taught"
Hmmm , could that be a delivery issue ?
You are flat out certifiable.But they spent $60 MM on the curriculum and the results got worse, so the only sane conclusion is to look to see if the problem is elsewhere
"something in the way math is taught"
Hmmm , could that be a delivery issue ?
You don't like the way this might play out.You are flat out certifiable.
Wow, you nailed it one try.
Now they can fix it, lets forward them your message and all sing kumbaya.
As long as you get the help you need.You don't like the way this might play out.
My preference is an outcome which is in the best interest of the students, how is that certifiable?
No the article did not specify the curriculum was at faultAs long as you get the help you need.
The article you posted was specifically about the need to change the curriculum but you can't accept that reality so you tried to pretend she was really saying teachers weren't doing their job.
Go back and read the article.No the article did not specify the curriculum was at fault...
It is not good enough for $87K + 13K in bennies + 2+ months in vacationhttp://www.eqao.com/en/assessments/communication-docs/what-parents-need-to-know.pdf
Scroll down to page 7. The provincial standard is "Level 3" which translates to a mark between 70 and 79%.
SO WHEN WE SAY 50% of the kids did not meet the standard it means that 50% scored 70% to 100%
That's pretty good. But if you think it should be higher.... keep in mind that each year a DIFFERENT group of grade 6 kids write the test. So if scores go up or down it could be just random chance that one group of grade 6 kids is smarter than another. Looking at the trends from year to year is deceiving. In other words all you can conclude is how well the kids did in 2016..... how the scores compare to 2015 is tough to make conclusions as the kids are different.
I can't help it if you choose to make up higher salaries by scaling up their work to 12 months.
Time after time you have provided links to loonie left wing partisan articlesNor can I help it if you choose to ignore the article that I linked which states that private and public school kids of the same socio economic status do equally well.
I never said thatIt's your problem that you think 6.2% unemployment is bad when it's been the lowest in quite some time.
I never said that eitherIt's your problem that you think all degrees should get you a good job EXCEPT for teachers.
It is a failure if graduates are underemployed and graduating into fields with very few employment opportunitiesGraduation rates of university is 80% which is good. The 20% that did not graduate some of them probably switched to college, trades or work..... so that's not a failure.
No,What you think a teacher is worth is purely your opinion.
You will not change people's behaviourIf you were really concerned about the good of this country you'd be looking at our most expensive item on the budget health care.
Education is vital but where we can save on health care is in the area of cancer and heart disease which claims the lives of 50% of Canadians. Lifestyle choices can definitely help if everyone ate a little better and took better care of themselves we could save a lot of money.
And you are a fool if you think you can
People will act in their own best interest and are generally making healthier choices
The true facts are that health care costs are going to escalate due to demographics
It is going to happen as sure as day turns to night
Layer on the rising interest rates to the largest debt in the non-sovereign world and the province will find itself in a unmanageable financial nightmare
The province has to become more cost responsible, it will eventually have no choice.
