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Feds angry with Ontario Pot Nation

lomotil

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Mar 14, 2004
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Oblivion
Yea, this smells pretty bullshitty to me at this point.

I can't find any statements using simple G searches to support OP, and would very much be interested in seeing a link to whatever article he's referencing.
The following are some references and as I said my post has some of my own interpretations to these articles and what I am observing. I invite you to offer some
disussion.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/marijuana-recommendations-in-toronto-1.3894648
www.macleans.ca/news/canada/how-will-the-provinces-sell-pot
http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/legalizing-marijuana-wont-shut-down-black-market-rcmp-official
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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The difference is that distilling takes a considerable amount of skill, expertise and capital if the distiller is not to produce unpalatable - and often dangerous - rotgut.....
Not actually that hard at all. Plenty of brew your own kits out there that prove it and moonshine was pretty common until government controlled sales and enforcement made bathtub gin unprofitable.

If meth gets made in people's basements, I can't see alcohol as a problem.
 

managee

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Jun 19, 2013
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The difference is that distilling takes a considerable amount of skill, expertise and capital if the distiller is not to produce unpalatable - and often dangerous - rotgut. Brewing maybe not so much. Growing weed on the other hand takes soil and water. Anyone can do it. The govt is making a stand on the allegation that illicit grow is potentially dangerous and using that to justify the weed shop raids that have been happening. Open to comments from frequent users as to the validity of this allegation.
Respectfully, I think you're missing a bit here. "Illicit grow is potentially dangerous" is an overgeneralization of one of the reasons I've heard used to justify the raids.

A huge part of the overall concerns that the government has with current "weed shops," is inconsistencies inherent in craft growing, concentrate extraction and/or baking.

When g-men start selling this, they "need" to have a consistent product in-terms of THC (or CBD) content. Depending on where you are in the world, this can range from around 0.5% all the way past 25% (THC) in dried flowers. Without clear testing and labelling, there is a public safety risk when/if you injest unexpected/unintended cannabinoids.

With the demand and distribution model the LCBO seems interested in, they'll literally need tons of dried flowers with identical (or a tolerable range of) THC levels from single, marketable strains. This is close to impossible unless VERY specific conditions are created during the grow and reproduced on future grows. This is all but impossible for craft growers favoured by current "weed shops," and is unlikely possible to be reproduced by different (less than industrial-sized) growers.

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It's absolutely different than home distilling or brewing, but it's not as simple as 'Plant seed in soil. Add water and sunlight. Enjoy.' The big difference, from a safety perspective, is that when you screw up when growing or are just mediocre at it, the end product is typically much less 'dangerous' than bad moonshine as it more than likely suffers from low THC levels.

So why care about a home grower sticking to his/her legal 4-plant limit?

In addition to the public safety risk that a market containing consumer-grown, unlabeled cannabis might pose, I imagine the LCBO and its handlers won't want competition, especially after they start spending public funds on this scheme.

Restriction-free options for home growing, plus the initial cost of equipment for a grow, plus limits on personal amounts of dried flowers will absolutely ensure the black market survives, and perhaps even thrives, thus defeating the very purpose of legalization.

Even at 4 plants, that's a huge amount of product. More than most can/should use for personal. At 3 or 4 months per grow (much faster with the right gear or one grow per season outdoors), that could be 10-16lbs (or more) per year per household. I'm not sure what you'd do with that kind of bud, other than turn it over and start again. Selling it will be illegal, and I imagine the LCBO will want to ensure they have as little competition as possible... and the LCBO can't compete with free.

Even small grow ops can be dangerous because of the lighting/power needs. Someone trying to save themselves a few $$$ can very easily create a safety hazard, in-particular if left unattended without automatic fire protection systems. Any landlord should be concerned about the damage even a small grow may cause unless done right (moisture damage in-particular). Neighbours in a condo or apartment building may resent hallways that constantly smell like someone decided not to vent their farm outdoors... (etc.)

Letting someone grow outdoors in your average neighbourhood would, IMO, invite crime. At 6-12ft tall right now (September), outdoor plants in Ontario are hard to hide. What happens if those skeevy neighbourhood teens get a hold of them? If you need to fence your pool in this province, I imagine public safety will take a front seat over all else here as-well.

Just my thoughts.
 

managee

Banned
Jun 19, 2013
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The following are some references and as I said my post has some of my own interpretations to these articles and what I am observing. I invite you to offer some
disussion.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/marijuana-recommendations-in-toronto-1.3894648
www.macleans.ca/news/canada/how-will-the-provinces-sell-pot
http://nationalpost.com/news/politics/legalizing-marijuana-wont-shut-down-black-market-rcmp-official
Thanks for posting. I incorrectly read the thread title and your OP as reported, not interpretation.

I disagree with your interpretation. I feel it's very unlikely that the Trudeau government will intervene substantially in the Wynn plan as it has been revealed so-far.

The McLellan report contained suggestions, not edicts. Ontario's plans are arguably more restrictive from a control and public safety standpoint than those suggested in the report. Federal intervention in provincial business is generally avoided. On this particular issue, I imagine Trudeau wants to wash his hands of it, unless a provincial body creates plans that run in opposition to national public safety (et al) needs.
 

lomotil

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Will the LCBO like pot dispensaries require government issued photo id to make a purchase. Also online, how will the provincial government website verify the age of the purchaser without creating a registry? This could be a problem for some and encourage the hassle free black market.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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Wine made from juice concentrate doesn't taste as good as real wine made from real grapes. You need a lot of skill to make wine from real grapes.
And you need a lot of skill to make good pot too. The more you do it, the easier it gets. Making okay stuff in either case is far from difficult. In university a couple of us set up a still and produced a gallon of moonshine just to see if we could. It was god awful but man, it had some kick.
 

lomotil

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Mar 14, 2004
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How efficient are the homegrown hydroponic kits for the 1-4 plant soon to be home legal grow ops? Maybe Walmart and Canadian Tire etc. may be selling this devices which will be likely made in China for the do it yourself grower who might like strains not dealt by the Province.
 

lomotil

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Mar 14, 2004
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Thanks for posting. I incorrectly read the thread title and your OP as reported, not interpretation.

I disagree with your interpretation. I feel it's very unlikely that the Trudeau government will intervene substantially in the Wynn plan as it has been revealed so-far.

The McLellan report contained suggestions, not edicts. Ontario's plans are arguably more restrictive from a control and public safety standpoint than those suggested in the report. Federal intervention in provincial business is generally avoided. On this particular issue, I imagine Trudeau wants to wash his hands of it, unless a provincial body creates plans that run in opposition to national public safety (et al) needs.
When I say that the Feds are angry, I mean government agencies like the RCMP and some House of Commons Committees, not necessarily the Trudeau Liberal. Even the governing Federal Liberals are getting a good deal of pushback now. Wynne and Trudeau are not forever, nor is anyone else. When Trudeau made this promise, it was not expected that he would even get elected as PM.
 

managee

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Jun 19, 2013
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When I say that the Feds are angry, I mean government agencies like the RCMP and some House of Commons Committees, not necessarily the Trudeau Liberal. Even the governing Federal Liberals are getting a good deal of pushback now. Wynne and Trudeau are not forever, nor is anyone else. When Trudeau made this promise, it was not expected that he would even get elected as PM.
Maybe I've missed it in the news, but I've only heard that the RCMP (and OPP/Barnum - not a fed) is actively pissed. Opposition MP's aside, I'm not sure if I've read any comments from committees and only a little bit coming out of the senate on this. What the RCMP/OPP say is that they're pissed about the pace. And all they've said is that they need more training and prep to be ready for this. They haven't really qualified their position beyond that.

I believe the implication is that they won't have accurate roadside testing available everywhere by next July. This isn't really shocking, it's barely rolled out anywhere in the states with or without legalized cannabis.

[And they also said that this timeline won't eliminate organized crime. (Shock).]

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Just a thought. Maybe police in Canada should re-allocate all resources currently being used to fight illegal activities related to cannabis into ensuring the training, technology and policy changes are in-place in-time for July 1.
 

managee

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How efficient are the homegrown hydroponic kits for the 1-4 plant soon to be home legal grow ops? Maybe Walmart and Canadian Tire etc. may be selling this devices which will be likely made in China for the do it yourself grower who might like strains not dealt by the Province.
The 'grow your own indoor tomatoes' kits?

If I recall, it's not too tough to get "something," but payout isn't generally worth the work. The lights are pretty weak.

I know someone who used them unsuccessfully on a Northern Reserve and someone else who liked them for starting outdoor plants.

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Real home grow kits aren't prohibitively expensive, but I'm still not sure if I'd bother (or if it'd be worth it to grow) unless prices at the LCBO are unreasonable and for some reason the black market dries up.
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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I applied to grow my own and am now legal, but they said I can have 4 plants indoors and only 1 outside. That kinda sucks because I don't really want to grow it inside...... rather just plant outside and let nature do its' thing.
 

angrymime666

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May 8, 2008
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FWIW every grower uses fertilizers. A responsible grower would stop using it a few weeks before harvesting and would switch to pure watering to flush the fertilizer out of the plant.
An irresponsible grower would fertilize as much as possible as it adds weight to the product.
its also leaves a horrible flavour and burns like shit
 

angrymime666

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May 8, 2008
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I applied to grow my own and am now legal, but they said I can have 4 plants indoors and only 1 outside. That kinda sucks because I don't really want to grow it inside...... rather just plant outside and let nature do its' thing.
growing inside you have better controls over temp, light, air, and environment. growing outside is not as safe, consistent and you will not produce nearly as potent, flavorful bud.
 

MattRoxx

Call me anti-fascist
Nov 13, 2011
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I get around.
I applied to grow my own and am now legal, but they said I can have 4 plants indoors and only 1 outside. That kinda sucks because I don't really want to grow it inside...... rather just plant outside and let nature do its' thing.
Yeah I don't see why the gov't insists on us growing in our homes. You can grow 4 plants. I can grow 4 plants. We should be able to find a few more people and rent a proper space where we can set up lights irrigation etc and all grow in one co-op grow-up.
The government says it's is all about safety - this would be a lot safer than me trying to cram plants into my little apartment and wire up lights and all the rest.

I think a lot of the legislation as it now stands will be tossed out during court challenges, eventually leaving Canada or Ontario with no active enforceable pot laws, which will have the effect of legalizing the gray market.
 

managee

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Jun 19, 2013
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Yeah I don't see why the gov't insists on us growing in our homes. You can grow 4 plants. I can grow 4 plants. We should be able to find a few more people and rent a proper space where we can set up lights irrigation etc and all grow in one co-op grow-up.
The government says it's is all about safety - this would be a lot safer than me trying to cram plants into my little apartment and wire up lights and all the rest.

I think a lot of the legislation as it now stands will be tossed out during court challenges, eventually leaving Canada or Ontario with no active enforceable pot laws, which will have the effect of legalizing the gray market.
You could very-well be right about the grey market. I hope so. I cringe at imagining the current black market drying up in any substantial way.

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I can't think of another reason for only 1 outdoor plant other than LE knows there's a chance it'll get stolen for harvest/distribution on the black market. The vast-majority of Canadians live in places where density doesn't allow for all that much discretion. It'd be hard to hide a 10ft plant in most of Toronto and the GTA. Limiting the 'damage' caused by legally grown, then stolen and distributed cannabis must be a priority. 1 plant being stolen, is better than 4, I guess.

Or maybe they're just assholes. That's not a lot of medicine assuming you only get 1 crop/turn per year.
 
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