City is having the new stairs installed for $10,000.00. So what have we learned? A set of stairs can in fact be designed and built for far less than the original estimates. And jtk was way off the mark in stating it couldn't be done for less!
New Staircase in Etobicoke
- Thread starter SkyRider
- Start date
The same city who never provided stairs after requests and accidents already occurred and they simply left it so people would walk down the mud hill. The requests and acknowledgement of needing a stair there has been on going for years so the same in action by the city puts them in a liable situation. Also many parks have the existing stair style that is at the bottom of those stairs. Yup those stairs aren't up to code neither are the city managers who rebuff requests by providing inflated estimates to avoid projects getting done. As new stairs are going in for under 10,000 by the city it shows the numbers were inflated beyond a reasonable amount. However the city managers who rebuffed the requests for years, while they collected bonuses annually, are not fired because they submitted ridiculous estimates to deter the project from going ahead that is the real issue. Of course projects costs more than a do it yourself home project but no way outrages estimates should be a tool used to deter projects being completed.
Horse shit.
Everything I wrote is correct.
The thing has become a political hot potato because of the media. If I've learned one thing over the years , it's that politicians HATE bad publicity in the media.
Because of this, they figure, "just get it fucking done and you've got 10 grand to work with"
The reality is that it cannot be done for 10 grand all in. It's impossible.
What they can do is circumvent all the regulations and then try to do it using city of Toronto staff. Staff salaries will be covered under the operations budget, or somehow otherwise hidden. They will use Equipment they own, and may even try to scavenge materials from stores. The engineering will be done in house, and done real fast and with little consideration for a proper job.
At the end of the day, make it happen for 10 grand.
But that will not be the real cost. The real cost is the charging all costs to the project. That's all equipment and manpower at the correct rates and the cost to follow the regs.
In addition, just build it all as cheaply as possible. It will not be correct by a long shot, but the general population is too stupid to know the difference.
Completion date is Friday. This is probably the only public project that will come in on budget and on time.
I'm sure the unions will make sure they get their $150,000 by screwing us on another project.
I think they said that was too far for little kids and old ladies. Think of the children.
There's a community garden at the bottom of the makeshift stairs. I believe these gardens get installed through local fundraising. This begs the questions of why they didn't position the garden at a spot closer to the existing park entrance or raise enough funds for a stairwell.
The general population can tell the difference between $10000 and $65000 or $120000 or whatever the union or contractors want for it.
The general population knows what it wants. It does not want $200000 stairs when an old guy with a homeless man can build something safer than what they were using, a rope as a railing while walking down a muddy slope, for $550 ... and the city needs 4 paid union workers to dismantle that project. Should have just hired the same homeless man as general labourer.
The general population knows times are still tough, and they know they are over taxed, and they know it takes something like this to have the politicians lift a finger.
The general population knows that if Doug Ford wants to run again for mayor, they would consider it after this dog and phony show.
The general population does not know how things work at City Hall, but they do have a suspicion of being scammed.
The general population wants more accountability for its politicians. We can blame McGunity Wynne for that increase in alertness.
The general population is tired of the bullshit. The same bullshit. Why property taxes always going up? Good reason right here with story.
I'm just curious what makes you a subject matter expert on this? Not picking a fight just curious.
I can tell you from actual construction experience that in some cases, solutions are often over engineered. This may have been the case here. Sure they are not properly costing out the project by an accounting stand point, but whether I pay 4 city guys to stand around and watch one guy work or actually get all 5 guys to do something is of little difference to me.
I can tell you from actual construction experience that in some cases, solutions are often over engineered. This may have been the case here. Sure they are not properly costing out the project by an accounting stand point, but whether I pay 4 city guys to stand around and watch one guy work or actually get all 5 guys to do something is of little difference to me.
65,000 to 100,000 dollars????????
funny how they figured out how to do it for 10......
must have been lighter machinery
Thanks for the update. Good to know in the event of future projects requiring contractors - Thanks.
It's funny how that happened...
A good possibility that the city has to many morons working for them and accept any number given to them, without having any knowledge that they are being taken to the cleaners. Just like the highly overpriced tools the Pentagon purchased years ago.
1. Stairs do not meet the requirements of the Ontario Building Code. For example, railings are required to have pickets at 4" centres to prevent a child from slipping through. The railings also appear to be simply welded fence post. I can see that the ends of the tubing are open. Someone can cut their hand. Not going to be correct as per OBC.
2. Stairs appear to be simply precast units. I severely doubt that they are founded correctly. Even the stairs for your house are supposed to be founded on a foundation (believe it or not). Another Code violation.
3. There is no provision for a landing, or handicapped access. Though I'm not sure what the code does or does not require with respect to those issues. (I am sure about railings or guards requiring no space greater than 4")
3. Clearly they did not go through any sort of approvals process or adhere to current regulations. If you or I did that, we would be fined.
4. According to media, they used City of Toronto staff to do the work and the cost of labour has not been included in the 10 grand. (Exactly what I said above.) I suspect the cost of equipment has also not been included.
So in the end, the City under pressure from our idiot mayor circumvented all the rules and regulations that you and I are held accountable to, violated the Ontario Building Code Act, and used City Labour forces and equipment for free.
10 grand my ass. And for an end result that violates the Building Code.
I am not asking to be a smartass, and really want to know the answer.
Does the OBC actually govern stand-alone stairs? And if so, what Section and where does it refer to non-building related use?
I thought this staircase would be considered landscaping.
Also, I don't think there even needs to be pickets as the handrail is not a "guard". There is no fall hazard. I do know that when there are pickets to guard a fall-through, they have to spaced to be less than 4" openings.
And although I agree that overall, it ilooks kinda less-than-optimal, I don't think there s any requirement to close off the tubes nor is there any specific requirement for the steps to have any specific foundation. Sure, a clear stone or gravel sub-base and then concrete to below the frost line is great, but most exterior landscape stairs and landings are simply excavated to mineral soil and then placed and levelling using gravel. I also think that the welder is not completed the field fabrication. Nor do I think it is "fence post" No welder would weld galvanized pipe without grinding off the zinc. And it would certainly rust there. The top rail end cut is cut on a bias and it looks like the gap will be filled using a wedge of tubing, then welded and ground smooth. I suspect it is stainless steel.
Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn more about the stringent OBC statutes you say apply to this staircase.
