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Boy Drowned On School Outing

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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There's no way 2 adults can watch 30 kids 24/7 on these outings.

If they had restricted the outing to only 15 instead of 30 kids, imagine the complaints from those left out.
There were at least 4 adults I believe. News reports had 2 teachers and two wilderness guides. The adult in me thinks more would be better though I also know that various camps do similar trips with a couple 18-20 year olds being responsible for a bunch of younger kids.


Your second sentence is just being your usual whiny old man.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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...... sorry but the school and the board is 100% to blame. again just my opinion.
From a litigation perspective sure (and my comment about lawsuit was that the board will pay out long before anything even gets filed in court).

But the parents knew the kid couldn't swim and let him go. The kid knew he couldn't swim but swam without a PFD. Some blame should stick to them (and is likely the root of some of their anger).
 

fluffy

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Jan 14, 2011
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Seriously, one never knows what species might be introduced in our waters. Maybe one day you'll find Asian Carps, or worse, in a lake near you.
LOL! You should stop making fish-related posts. An Asian Carp couldn't pull a child under water either. They feed on algae and have very small mouths.
 

frankcastle

Well-known member
Feb 4, 2003
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Something went severely wrong. In no way should you take kids on a trip when FIFTEEN can't swim.

The teachers AND principal are in deep shit. Whether they lose their job is a question of what exactly happened. There's a lot of unknowns between the 15 failed swim tests and the drowning. Every month there's a publication that shows teachers who have been disciplined or fired. People lose their teaching certificates for things less far than a death..... so it is a serious possibility.

Another question is what did the boy do to fall in the water? Was he horsing around?

There's a formula for number of adults required for a school trip. Not sure what it is. 2 teachers for 30 students does not sound out of the ordinary but the formula might change if we are talking over night, on the water etc.

If I was one of the teachers there's NO WAY I'd take kids on a trip like that if half can't swim. They could have easily done a hiking/camping trip and skipped the canoe portion. Or half the kids who can swim go canoing with the one teacher and the other half go hiking.
 

frankcastle

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Feb 4, 2003
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Was the kid wearing a PFD? I was on a jet ski this summer and I wiped out. I can swim but with the PFD I floated with zero effort.
 

sweetiepieexo

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Jul 26, 2016
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anywhere i want;)
I agree both parties are to blame but if the students could not swim why would they take them on a school trip if 15 of them failed? Wouldn't the teachers have known it would have been dangerous... Isnt that the reason they did the swim test in the first place? If there were not enough students who passed and not enough to go on a field trip the best solution to avoid this would be cancel the trip regardless of the students disappointments. I understand that these are not children and that they can make their own decisions - however if it was me and I knew I couldn't swim I would not want to go on the trip. Especially in an area where the current can be bad. I also agree that kids will sneak out and do stupid things - speaking from past experience here ; however in the article it clearly states he went missing in the afternoon while swimming with his friends. Therefore the question now becomes - where were the teachers? were they watching? How did they mess up a head count? I understand that parents sign a permission form and the only fault of these parents was letting their sons go on the trip when they knew they couldn't swim. After they left it was up to the teachers to make sure they came home safe. Maybe that teacher who brought his family shouldn't have done that.. what if he was distracted by them ? I mean a school trip and bringing your family? that's not a normal school activity when it comes to field trips. All I'm saying is that this is a very sad situation which could have been avoided. As for a lawsuit like I said its up to the court to decide who is to blame but I'm sure they will side with the parents.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
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LMAO...really, LMAO.

Agreed,...teachers,...yep,...LMAO.

The thing is,...if they get fired or convicted of some crime,...will they still get their gold plated pension,...???
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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A dumb kid made a dumb mistake.....teenagers are not helpless creatures, like 3 year olds are. The kid is responsible for sneaking out at night and swimming without a PFD even though he couldn't swim.... quit trying to sacrifice an adult for this unfortunate blunder.
 

wigglee

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Oct 13, 2010
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I agree both parties are to blame but if the students could not swim why would they take them on a school trip if 15 of them failed? Wouldn't the teachers have known it would have been dangerous... Isnt that the reason they did the swim test in the first place? If there were not enough students who passed and not enough to go on a field trip the best solution to avoid this would be cancel the trip regardless of the students disappointments. I understand that these are not children and that they can make their own decisions - however if it was me and I knew I couldn't swim I would not want to go on the trip. Especially in an area where the current can be bad. I also agree that kids will sneak out and do stupid things - speaking from past experience here ; however in the article it clearly states he went missing in the afternoon while swimming with his friends. Therefore the question now becomes - where were the teachers? were they watching? How did they mess up a head count? I understand that parents sign a permission form and the only fault of these parents was letting their sons go on the trip when they knew they couldn't swim. After they left it was up to the teachers to make sure they came home safe. Maybe that teacher who brought his family shouldn't have done that.. what if he was distracted by them ? I mean a school trip and bringing your family? that's not a normal school activity when it comes to field trips. All I'm saying is that this is a very sad situation which could have been avoided. As for a lawsuit like I said its up to the court to decide who is to blame but I'm sure they will side with the parents.
if I was a kid who couldn't swim, I would listen to the teacher when he told me to wear a life jacket at all times in the water and don't sneak out at night and swim alone
 

sweetiepieexo

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Jul 26, 2016
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anywhere i want;)
again you didn't read the article .... he drowned in the afternoon sometime. it was not until everyone got out of the water and gathered with the teachers that they noticed he was missing. quit trolling. lol
if I was a kid who couldn't swim, I would listen to the teacher when he told me to wear a life jacket at all times in the water and don't sneak out at night and swim alone
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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if I was a kid who couldn't swim, I would listen to the teacher when he told me to wear a life jacket at all times in the water and don't sneak out at night and swim alone
Sounds like you still are a "kid".

Do you actually expect some "kid" to go swimming with other class mates who aren't wearing a life jacket, and put one on,...???

The teachers are directly responsible,...and the TDSB indirectly responsible.
 

KBear

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Aug 17, 2001
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A dumb kid made a dumb mistake......
That's overly harsh. Youth push limits and do things that are sometimes dangerous, whether they realize it or not, and 99.9% of the time they learn a lesson. He may have walked out into the lake not knowing the bottom of the lake will drop out from under him and he would be suddenly under water.


Was the kid wearing a PFD? I was on a jet ski this summer and I wiped out. I can swim but with the PFD I floated with zero effort.

They could have easily done a hiking/camping trip and skipped the canoe portion.
Interesting your story about the PFD. If this is a new experience for you, as an older guy, can see how young kids would look at the PFD and not appreciate what a big difference it makes. Think the students were to be wearing a PFD at ALL times.

Would think it is obvious that you better be able to swim if going on a canoe trip. Maybe allowing students who can't swim on a canoe trip is part of the no kid left behind project.

They were camped on the shore, so eliminating the canoe portion of the trip would not have saved him. Should do field trips in the prairies, no water, no cliffs, nothing.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Sounds like you still are a "kid".

Do you actually expect some "kid" to go swimming with other class mates who aren't wearing a life jacket, and put one on,...???
The news reports had other kids swimming with PFds at the time.
The teachers are directly responsible,...and the TDSB indirectly responsible.
I guess the Ayn Randian philosophy of personal responsibility goes out the window when you can blame teachers.

Yes, the teachers and the board have a legal responsibility but the kid and his parents who agreed to him going bear some guilt.
 

managee

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Jun 19, 2013
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Update: CTV interviewed the student who went into the water with the victim. He said the victim was not wearing a life jacket and "something" pulled him under the water.

Query: Are there any killer fishes or other animals in the waters of Big Trout Lake?
Seems like it may not have been a killer fish after all.

I agree both parties are to blame but if the students could not swim why would they take them on a school trip if 15 of them failed? Wouldn't the teachers have known it would have been dangerous... Isnt that the reason they did the swim test in the first place? If there were not enough students who passed and not enough to go on a field trip the best solution to avoid this would be cancel the trip regardless of the students disappointments.
I really agree with you here.

The investigations (etc.) to come will be really interesting, if any of it is public. The Toronto Star article said: "TDSB policy requires that all students going on such trips pass a canoe-specific swim test at a third-party facility on a lake. If they don’t pass that test, they should have had another opportunity to pass, with another test and one-on-one swim coaching at the C.W. Jeffreys pool."

So does that mean every kid gets to pass? Or will they kick a kid off the trip if the one-on-one coaching doesn't pan out?

Minimum standards when it comes to water safety is a no-brainer. I think TDSB will need to re-evaluate its policies here. Unfortunately, the easy/safe/smart solution is to stop running these trips. Or any trip.

I'm surprised teachers still bother running field trips considering the risks associated with them.

It seems like the teacher(s) here made some pretty poor choices. Why on earth would you take responsibility for a student who is so obviously a personal/professional liability? Then you bring your dog and child? Very unprofessional. This teacher(s) has complete disregard for school board policy and perhaps even common sense...

If the teachers weren't supervising and knew the kids were swimming, I'd say they're pretty screwed.

If they were supervising and the victim chose to go for a swim without safety equipment those teachers presumably supplied and instructed him to wear at all times near the water, they might be less screwed.

But I'm no expert here.

As-per gold plated pension: if I understand it correctly, if they get fired for this, on retirement they are entitled to whatever they contributed before they got fired. Obviously, if they're fired TDSB would stop sending paycheques, and therefore making pension contributions. Assuming it's a relatively young teacher who brought their child, their pension would be a fraction of what they would have been entitled to had they not been fired. To my knowledge, your pension contributions can't even be touched if the victim's family successfully sues these teachers...
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
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The news reports had other kids swimming with PFds at the time.

I guess the Ayn Randian philosophy of personal responsibility goes out the window when you can blame teachers.

Yes, the teachers and the board have a legal responsibility but the kid and his parents who agreed to him going bear some guilt.
You know for a fact all the kids were wearing PFD's,...???

So the teachers and TDSB only have a "legal" responsibility,...wow,...does explain the attitude of teachers though.

The parents,...especially the ones in this case,...expected the teachers to be responsible for their kids safety,...but as has been posted here numerous times,...we shouldn't have expected that.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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...

So does that mean every kid gets to pass? Or will they kick a kid off the trip if the one-on-one coaching doesn't pan out?

Minimum standards when it comes to water safety is a no-brainer. I think TDSB will need to re-evaluate its policies here. Unfortunately, the easy/safe/smart solution is to stop running these trips. Or any trip. s...
That's what their policy says. Statements say the teachers ignored it.
 
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