Anxiety intensifies in Toronto's suburbs as anti-Muslim rhetoric escalates

FAST said:

WOW,...now that is tying things down.

You have no idea what those clubs do at their meetings,...because to its,... "just as difficult to get specific details",...well then don't bring up something you have no clue about,...???

,..."That doesn't mean it doesn't happen",...just what the hell is "it",...just more maybe, could a, perhaps,...useless.

So again you have NOTHING to prove that the Christian "clubs" have prayer sessions during class hours, let alone tying up a computer lab.

But here's the thing frank,...you are again missing the whole point I have been making all along,...religious indoctrination in none denominational public schools,...I don't give a shit what religion it is,...it is wrong,...according to most Canadians,...and The Human Rights Council of Ont.

We all know why fuji would bring the Christianity religion into this,...but,...it means nothing,...the point is,... no religious indoctrination in none denominational public schools,...regardless of religion,...no exceptions.

FAST

Click to expand...

You're reading it wrong. I am pointing out that it is difficult to find in print proof of what I know is going on. That is not the same as saying I don't know what is going on.

You keep saying the Human Rights commission agrees with you. No. You twisted one point that they made about indoctrination to suit your argument. If your point that prayer is indoctrination was correct the HRC would shut down religious clubs OR tell them that they can meet but can't pray or some such.

So what we really have is JUST your opinion and until your opinion becomes law or the law sees thing your way you are out of luck.

You miss my point which is that if the anti muslim prayer group people had a legal leg to stand on it would be shut down.

See FAST and the outraged parents need to read the proper headline..... not Rebelnews

Proper headline (if the event even happened) should be "Teacher forgot the long standing Friday Prayer session was in the computer lab" or "Students forced to wait no more than 20 minutes due to teacher's mistake"

frankcastle said:

FAST

read this quote again.


so do you honestly think christian prayers dont happen
during school hours?

Click to expand...

I honestly don't know if Christian prayer sessions are being held during class hours,...DO YOU,...???

FAST

Nothing more,...

frankcastle said:

See FAST and the outraged parents need to read the proper headline..... not Rebelnews

Proper headline (if the event even happened) should be "Teacher forgot the long standing Friday Prayer session was in the computer lab" or "Students forced to wait no more than 20 minutes due to teacher's mistake"

Click to expand...

,...IF,...should,...or,...forgot,...???????????

You forgot to mention one important FACT,..."the outraged parents" have students in the school that are not forced into religious indoctrination during class hours in a computer lab.

FAST

FAST clear your private message box.. trying to send you a PM.

FAST said:

I honestly don't know if Christian prayer sessions are being held during class hours,...DO YOU,...???

FAST

Click to expand...

based on the mission statement i shared for the group that spans 20 schools in the gta. combined with that one school openly posted its meeting time as noon. i would say yes.

westmount and parkside are two school in hamilton where kids and parents fought to have the right to have noonchristian prayer groups. parkside evem designated a prayer room.

looks like the law worked for christians as well.

which goes back to my original point that the muslims used the same laws we all have access to.

frankcastle said:

based on the mission statement i shared for the group that spans 20 schools in the gta. combined with that one school openly posted its meeting time as noon. i would say yes.

Click to expand...

I dont' want to jump into the middle of this brouhaha, but noon is more lunch than class hours. Not sure if that makes any difference. Removing the lord's prayers from schools was supposed to be about removing religion from the schools. Even if prayers etc, are outside of
school hours, I dont' find it acceptable for them to be on school grounds. There are a multitude of reasons for my position, but the crux of it would be that schools are for higher learning, and should be a safe haven for kids away from their religion.

slowandeasy said:

I dont' want to jump into the middle of this brouhaha, but noon is more lunch than class hours. Not sure if that makes any difference. Removing the lord's prayers from schools was supposed to be about removing religion from the schools. Even if prayers etc, are outside of
school hours, I dont' find it acceptable for them to be on school grounds. There are a multitude of reasons for my position, but the crux of it would be that schools are for higher learning, and should be a safe haven for kids away from their religion.

Click to expand...

The Lord's prayer was not removed. It was moved from a core homeroom activity to being done outside of class at optional clubs. The Christian fellowship clubs certainly use the prayer in their meetings.

NOTE,...the subject is a NONE denominational public school,....

frankcastle said:

You're reading it wrong. I am pointing out that it is difficult to find in print proof of what I know is going on. That is not the same as saying I don't know what is going on.

Click to expand...

??????????????

You keep saying the Human Rights commission agrees with you. No. You twisted one point that they made about indoctrination to suit your argument. If your point that prayer is indoctrination was correct the HRC would shut down religious clubs OR tell them that they can meet but can't pray or some such.

Click to expand...

Religious prayer is no less religious indoctrination than religious sermons,…that’s not twisting anything,…its just common scense

From the human rights commission.
",….. schools must work to ensure that parental religious beliefs and rights are not operating at cross-purposes to the rights of the child.[20] Even if we are willing to accept that parents can force their views on their children at home (or in their places of worship), we need to ensure that schools, as public institutions, are not complicit participants in this. This will obviously require walking a fine line in many cases, but such is the duty on an institution as central to our society as the school.[21]

Conclusion
Issues of religion are always difficult because they involve deep-seated beliefs. At stake are multiple interests and values, respect for parental roles, increasing respect for the rights of the child, in public schools.

Some relevant factors to be considered and addressed when these issues arise include:
1.The need to guard against religious indoctri- nation/coercion;
2.The need to accommodate religious practices/beliefs without endorsing or sanctioning any in particular or favoring some over others";

So what we really have is JUST your opinion and until your opinion becomes law or the law sees thing your way you are out of luck.
You miss my point which is that if the anti muslim prayer group people had a legal leg to stand on it would be shut down.

Click to expand...

From the National Post
“A Toronto school that allows Muslim students to conduct prayer sessions during class hours on school property is pushing up against the boundaries set by the courts more than 20 years ago to keep religious instruction out of public classrooms.
“I think this looks like a school practicing religion,” said Ed Morgan, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto. “The school may be conveying a message that they endorse religion and that’s what the school is not allowed to do.”
In the 1980s, Canadian courts decided that the Lord’s Prayer should not be said in public schools because it was a form of religious indoctrination and at the same time stigmatized and ridiculed those children who had to seek an opt-out clause to be excused from saying the Christian prayer.”

I tend to thake the opioion of a a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto,…over some one who has NO qualifications.
Plus,…do you really expect the Christian, Hindu and none beleiver parents to hire a lawyer to fight a dysfunctional school board,…???

A little long winded,…but as this thread has degraded into a personal insulting mess for both of us frank,…this will be my last post with interaction with you, on this thread.
Scince I am such a nice guy,…,…I have given you the last shot. But please read the title.

FAST

PS: This also goes for you fuji,…but feel free to continue missquoting my posts to your hearts content,…I will NOT be responding.

Done

FAST

FAST said:

??????????????


Religious prayer is no less religious indoctrination than religious sermons,…that’s not twisting anything,…its just common scense

From the human rights commission.
",….. schools must work to ensure that parental religious beliefs and rights are not operating at cross-purposes to the rights of the child.[20] Even if we are willing to accept that parents can force their views on their children at home (or in their places of worship), we need to ensure that schools, as public institutions, are not complicit participants in this. This will obviously require walking a fine line in many cases, but such is the duty on an institution as central to our society as the school.[21]

Conclusion
Issues of religion are always difficult because they involve deep-seated beliefs. At stake are multiple interests and values, respect for parental roles, increasing respect for the rights of the child, in public schools.

Some relevant factors to be considered and addressed when these issues arise include:
1.The need to guard against religious indoctri- nation/coercion;
2.The need to accommodate religious practices/beliefs without endorsing or sanctioning any in particular or favoring some over others";



From the National Post
“A Toronto school that allows Muslim students to conduct prayer sessions during class hours on school property is pushing up against the boundaries set by the courts more than 20 years ago to keep religious instruction out of public classrooms.
“I think this looks like a school practicing religion,” said Ed Morgan, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto. “The school may be conveying a message that they endorse religion and that’s what the school is not allowed to do.”
In the 1980s, Canadian courts decided that the Lord’s Prayer should not be said in public schools because it was a form of religious indoctrination and at the same time stigmatized and ridiculed those children who had to seek an opt-out clause to be excused from saying the Christian prayer.”

I tend to thake the opioion of a a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto,…over some one who has NO qualifications.
Plus,…do you really expect the Christian, Hindu and none beleiver parents to hire a lawyer to fight a dysfunctional school board,…???

A little long winded,…but as this thread has degraded into a personal insulting mess for both of us frank,…this will be my last post with interaction with you, on this thread.
Scince I am such a nice guy,…,…I have given you the last shot. But please read the title.

FAST

PS: This also goes for you fuji,…but feel free to continue missquoting my posts to your hearts content,…I will NOT be responding.

Click to expand...

Well after this many pages you still don't know the difference between non and none.

What you are engaging in is "an appeal to authority" being a prof doesn't mean he knows how this would go if it went to court.

Let's look more closely at what he said.... "push up against boundaries" doesn't mean it crossed the boundary. "I think" meaning it is his opinion. "the school may" meaning might so maybe the school did or did not play favourites.

Did the prof specify what "school hours" are does it include lunch?

The Lord's Prayer is not an analogous situation because unlike everyone being forced to say it or opt out in front of all their classmates. We are talking about a voluntary club. If there are kids that would bully others for not attending the club the problem is not the club but the student's attitude. Even if the club wasn't there they would likely find ways to bully kids they thought were not as devout as them. That type of attitude should not be tolerated but the club shouldn't be blamed for it. That's like saying get rid of sports because jocks bully nerds.

Furthermore, if you read his comment closely he is not saying prayer is indoctrination..... making everyone say it is indoctrination.

I notice you seem to skip the posts that I made which proves prayer does happen during the school day and that the mission statement I provided is riddle with very strong religious overtones.

Lawyers are expensive but there are groups that would take on Human Rights cases for free.

Anyways, since this is the last word treat these questions as rhetorical.

Christians have fought for similar rights within the last decade (Westmount and Parkside). What the Muslims did was not unique and they are not favoured. I have no problems with Friday prayers because accomodations should be made to all religions and I trust that if a kid was turned away from the lab it was the teacher's fault for forgetting about the scheduled prayer session.

So there is no indoctrination(voluntary private prayer is not the same as making everyone say the same prayer), coercion (the club is voluntary), or favouring of one religion over another (see posts where I proved Christian clubs do the same thing) and it is debatable if lunch hour is considered school hours. That's why there is no case.

Special rights.

slowandeasy said:

I dont' want to jump into the middle of this brouhaha, but noon is more lunch than class hours. Not sure if that makes any difference. Removing the lord's prayers from schools was supposed to be about removing religion from the schools. Even if prayers etc, are outside of
school hours, I dont' find it acceptable for them to be on school grounds. There are a multitude of reasons for my position, but the crux of it would be that schools are for higher learning, and should be a safe haven for kids away from their religion.

Click to expand...

Yep,...according to the Human Rights Council of Ont.,...and a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto,...and the Government of Canada.

But who cares about religion in nondenominational public schools, once the Christian religion was officially removed,...any other religion is now fair to open shop.

Official-dom is not going to investigate religious indoctrination in a school during class hours in a computer lab,...that is 90% Muslim.

Not a snow balls chance in hell.

And agree,... that after hours should be banned,...these buildings are for non religious educational purposes during class times,...lock the fricken doors after that

There are plenty of places of religious indoctrination to use,... for these so called "clubs",...that kids fight for,...which in itself is hilarious.


FAST

FAST said:

.

And agree,... that after hours should be banned,...these buildings are for non religious educational purposes during class times,...lock the fricken doors after that

There are plenty of places of religious indoctrination to use,... for these so called "clubs",...that kids fight for,...which in itself is hilarious.


FAST

Click to expand...

Go google Westmount and Parkside Christian kids fought part of their prostest involved meeting outside the school in the winter time.

slowandeasy said:

I dont' want to jump into the middle of this brouhaha, but noon is more lunch than class hours. Not sure if that makes any difference. Removing the lord's prayers from schools was supposed to be about removing religion from the schools. Even if prayers etc, are outside of
school hours, I dont' find it acceptable for them to be on school grounds. There are a multitude of reasons for my position, but the crux of it would be that schools are for higher learning, and should be a safe haven for kids away from their religion.

Click to expand...

Jump in at any time. You've already presented yourself as courteous.

Its no wonder the current class of graduates are unemployables,... from our education system,...teachers are cowards, and can't read or comprehend above a 4 year olds level.

FAST

FAST said:

??????????????


Religious prayer is no less religious indoctrination than religious sermons,…that’s not twisting anything,…its just common scense

From the human rights commission.
",….. schools must work to ensure that parental religious beliefs and rights are not operating at cross-purposes to the rights of the child.[20] Even if we are willing to accept that parents can force their views on their children at home (or in their places of worship), we need to ensure that schools, as public institutions, are not complicit participants in this. This will obviously require walking a fine line in many cases, but such is the duty on an institution as central to our society as the school.[21]

Conclusion
Issues of religion are always difficult because they involve deep-seated beliefs. At stake are multiple interests and values, respect for parental roles, increasing respect for the rights of the child, in public schools.

Some relevant factors to be considered and addressed when these issues arise include:
1.The need to guard against religious indoctri- nation/coercion;
2.The need to accommodate religious practices/beliefs without endorsing or sanctioning any in particular or favoring some over others";



From the National Post
“A Toronto school that allows Muslim students to conduct prayer sessions during class hours on school property is pushing up against the boundaries set by the courts more than 20 years ago to keep religious instruction out of public classrooms.
“I think this looks like a school practicing religion,” said Ed Morgan, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto. “The school may be conveying a message that they endorse religion and that’s what the school is not allowed to do.”
In the 1980s, Canadian courts decided that the Lord’s Prayer should not be said in public schools because it was a form of religious indoctrination and at the same time stigmatized and ridiculed those children who had to seek an opt-out clause to be excused from saying the Christian prayer.”

I tend to thake the opioion of a a professor of constitutional law at the University of Toronto,…over some one who has NO qualifications.
Plus,…do you really expect the Christian, Hindu and none beleiver parents to hire a lawyer to fight a dysfunctional school board,…???

A little long winded,…but as this thread has degraded into a personal insulting mess for both of us frank,…this will be my last post with interaction with you, on this thread.
Scince I am such a nice guy,…,…I have given you the last shot. But please read the title.

FAST

PS: This also goes for you fuji,…but feel free to continue missquoting my posts to your hearts content,…I will NOT be responding.

Click to expand...

Here's the relevant part you are ignoring:

"The need to accommodate religious practices/beliefs without endorsing or sanctioning any in particular or favoring some over others";"

No religion is endorsed and all are allowed their own optional prayer meetings.

FAST said:

Its no wonder the current class of graduates are unemployables,... from our education system,...teachers are cowards, and can't read or comprehend above a 4 year olds level.

FAST

Click to expand...

Thats not a fair comment about teachers. Most are doing the best they can within a system that penalizes them for having courage. The system is a product of society, where we now have too many adults who have rebelled against or corrupted the values they grew up on. In many ways I feel lucky to live in this generation, but we have some things that need to change.

My comment on teach(ers) was obviously directed at only those who can't read and are something less than a man.

But hey,...who knows,...with the style of some posters here,...maybe they are actually butch lesbians hiding as a man,...not that there is anything wrong with that.

This applies to a certain economic refugee also.

FAST

GoWest8745 said:

There should be a higher quality of education in small towns that have very few muslims since the latter are responsible of this drop in education quality.

Click to expand...

What the hell has that got to do with me smacking a cowardly poster down, who can't read,...it was purely about a poster,...NOT about the subject of religious indoctrination in nondenominational public schools,...???

FAST