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US Airstrikes slaughter civilians in Mosul....

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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Agreed, Trump has supposedly eased off the rules of engagement.
This is his fault now.
 

yung_dood

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Their lives don't matter very much, they're Muslim and we have good Christian bombs.

(CNN) The US military is investigating whether it was responsible for the deaths of nearly 300 Syrian and Iraqi civilians in three different sets of airstrikes this month.

Civilian casualties have been alleged in all three instances, but each situation is different and complex, a US defense official said. So far, there is no indication of a breakdown in US military procedures governing airstrikes, the official stressed, and the US is not contemplating a pause in military operations.

But the potential that the US is responsible for some, or all, of the deaths is considered serious enough that Central Command, which oversees operations in Iraq and Syria, is working around the clock trying to assess exactly what happened, the official said.

The possibility of US military responsibility in civilian deaths illustrates the growing challenge of conducting increased airstrikes in the densely populated neighborhoods of both west Mosul and Raqqa, officials said.

The most extensive case involves western Mosul. The US military is trying to determine if sometime between March 17 and March 23, bombs dropped in a neighborhood by US warplanes resulted in the deaths of more than 200 civilians. The incidents military officials are looking into are based largely on local reports and social media accounts of the strikes.

"The coalition conducted several strikes near Mosul and we will provide this information to our civilian casualty team for further investigation," Pentagon spokesman Eric Pahon said.

Coalition forces announced Saturday that they have opened a formal investigation into the alleged civilian casualties in western Mosul, saying data from that time frame confirms military strikes hit ISIS forces "at the location corresponding to allegations of civilian casualties" on March 17.

The coalition "takes all allegations of civilian casualties seriously" and opened the investigation "to determine the facts surrounding this strike and the validity of the allegation of civilian casualties," the statement said.

Separately, a US defense official told CNN the military is trying to determine how many civilians were killed in the Mosul strikes and how it may have happened. Some of the questions the military is asking are: Did the US strike the buildings that the civilians were allegedly killed in, and if so, why did the US not know civilians were there? Did US forces strike the wrong buildings and not what they meant to target? How many civilians might have been killed? Were they killed by US bombs, or was there a secondary explosion from the bombing or blast waves that caused further destruction?

The US has not ruled out the possibility that ISIS was using some people as human shields, but the official who has direct knowledge of the investigation said there is urgency to find out if the US was responsible because of the scope of what may have happened.

However, US officials cautioned that local reports can be difficult to verify because the US does not have anyone on the ground, and may be unreliable because they lack the precise detail the military wants to have to determine what happened.

The chairman of Nineveh Provincial Council in Iraq, Bashar al Kiki, told CNN that at least 200 people were killed in the western Mosul neighborhoods of al Jadidah, al Amel and al Yarmouk in airstrikes by the US-led coalition and Iraqi Air Force on March 22 and March 23. The Iraqi official demanded an end to military operations in the area until civilians' safety can be guaranteed.

"Most of (those) killed are civilians, among them children and women," al Kiki told CNN. "Nineveh Provincial Council members call on Iraqi security forces to stop the military operations in these areas immediately and until we guarantee the safety of hundreds of thousands of civilians."

And Basma Bassem, a member of the Mosul City Council, told CNN that the death toll could rise significantly because rescue operations are still underway.

The Pentagon spokesman said the US is studying the allegations. "The coalition has opened a formal civilian casualty credibility assessment on this allegation, and we are currently analyzing conflicting allegations and all possible strikes in that area," Pahon said.

The US military also has begun a formal investigation into a March 16 airstrike in northern Syria, where local reports say a mosque was struck and more than 40 people died. For days the Pentagon said there were no civilian casualties in the March 16 incident, even as numerous social media reports showed images of bodies being carried out of the rubble.

In the initial hours following the strike by US drones and aircraft, the Pentagon had been adamant that it had only hit a building some 40 feet away from the mosque, where it said al Qaeda members were holding a meeting.

"We do not currently assess there were any civilian casualties," Pentagon spokesman Captain Jeff Davis told reporters on March 17, the day after the strike. "As always, you know we take extraordinary measures to mitigate the loss of civilian life in our operations."

At the time, Davis also showed a photo of the still-standing mosque and a larger building a short distance away. Half of that building had been clearly destroyed in an airstrike. The Pentagon could not say if that larger building had any religious use, and would only say it was certain that a meeting of al Qaeda operatives was underway when it was struck. Defense officials said then that they were convinced the target was legitimate and no civilians were present based on lengthy overhead surveillance before and after the strike.

The investigation into the March 16 airstrike will be conducted under Army rules in a so-called "15-6" fact-finding investigation, named after the regulation governing how it will be conducted. Two US defense officials confirmed the investigation has been initiated by the Joint Special Operations Command which conducted the mission. The investigation will eventually be reviewed by Gen. Joseph Votel, head of the US Central Command, who oversees all military operations in the region. Votel can either accept the investigation's findings, or send it on for further review by military legal authorities, the officials said.

This is not a criminal investigation. But by using this method, an investigating officer is appointed who then has the ability to question US military personnel and review classified material -- in this case to determine if civilians were killed. If that determination is made, it will be up to Votel to decide if further action is warranted.

The same investigatory process has been used by Central Command recently in two highly controversial cases. In 2015, a US Air Force AC-130 gunship attacked a hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan, killing several people. The investigation found that military procedures were not followed, leading to the wrong building being attacked. Most recently, an investigation into the shooting deaths of three Army Special Forces soldiers in Jordan found they were behaving correctly when they entered a Jordanian military base, something that was originally disputed.

In a third instance, Central Command is also reviewing an airstrike against a school building Wednesday near Raqqa. Local activists have said an airstrike may have killed more than 30 civilians seeking shelter there. The US was conducting strikes in the area, the defense official said. Central Command is trying to determine if it hit the correct building, and if civilians whom US military officials did not know about may have been inside.

CNN's Mohammed Tawfeeq and Hamdi Alkhshali contributed to this report.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/03/24/politics/us-airstrikes-iraq-syria-civilian-deaths/index.html
 

SuperCharge

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(CNN)A coalition airstrike on an ISIS truck laden with explosives led to the deaths of dozens of civilians in Mosul
By Ghazi Balkiz and Angela Dewan, CNN
(CNN)A coalition airstrike on an ISIS truck laden with explosives led to the deaths of dozens of civilians in Mosul, a senior Iraqi military officer said Sunday.
The US-led coalition has acknowledged hitting an explosives-laden vehicle in a March
17 strike; the coalition said separately that a review of its airstrikes indicated one strike occurred that day in the area where the casualties were reported.

Confusion has surrounded events during airstrikes on the city between March 17 and 23 after allegations emerged that as many as 200 civilians had been killed there.

Bashar al Kiki, chairman of the Nineveh Provincial Council and the source of the death toll, backed off the figure Sunday, saying that 200 was the death toll from multiple locations, citing his sources. He did not provide further details.
The US-led coalition confirmed Saturday that it had carried out an airstrike on March 17 "at the location corresponding to allegations of civilian casualties."

Col. Muntathar Al-Shamari, the head of the Iraqi Counterterrorism Unit in Mosul, said that, prior to the airstrike, Iraqi counterterrorism forces had asked the US-led coalition to engage an ISIS vehicle that had been loaded with explosives.
"When the (vehicle) was struck, it exploded, destroying one or two of the houses next to where families were hiding," he said.
Al-Shamari characterized the report of 200 dead as an exaggeration.
Around 130 people were hiding in one of the homes, Iraqi Joint Military Command spokesman Brigadier General Yahya Rasool said.
82nd Airborne troops deploying


The defense departments from both Iraq and the United States launched investigations Saturday into airstrikes between March 17 and 23 and the civilian deaths.

A coalition review of airstrikes during that period found only one that corresponded to reports of civilian casualties in Mosul. That was the one on March 17.

The Iraqi military said in a statement Sunday that the home it examined had been reduced to rubble, but there was no sign of it being hit from the air. The team found a vehicle bomb and detonator in the debris. Those findings, along with witness accounts, led the team to believe that ISIS fighters had blown up the home. fighters were shooting at aircraft above them when an "explosion happened," she said."Some people I talked to said the building started falling down on them. Some saw that truck that was parked on the street explode.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/26/middleeast/iraq-mosul-us-airstrikes-civilians/
 

danmand

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It is spelled hypocricy.
 

Butler1000

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Welcome to war. How anyone thinks there won't be civilian casualties in urban warfare is beyond me.

But take your pick people. Either go after Isis or walk away completely. Let them fight it out. But if you do that then shut off travel from the area as well.
 

Insidious Von

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That's the nature of warfare, civilians are ground chuck for the war mincer. Shock and Awe killed thousands of Iraqi civilians, it was considered collateral damage.

The Iraqi Army should be commended for taking the fight to Daesh, let them take the spoils. And Trump better not claim victory for himself.
 

Frankfooter

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A large reason that Europe and the world are dealing with mass Muslim immigrants is because of US foreign policy that has helped make countries unliveable.

You need to start the discussions about ISIS, who were built on the remainder of Saddam's army, with the US sanctions on their one time ally, Iraq and the price they payed.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price–we think the price is worth it.
—60 Minutes (5/12/96)
 

yung_dood

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The US Is Bombing Syria So Much That Watchdogs Can't Keep Up

BEN SULLIVAN

Mar 24 2017, 1:34pm

The sheer number of US Coalition airstrikes is diverting civilian casualty counters away from investigating Russian bombings.

Allegations of civilian casualties as a result of United States coalition airstrikes in Iraq and Syria have swelled so much since January that airstrike watchdog Airwars can't keep track. Unable to keep up with the number of bombings by both Russia and the United States coalition, the organization announced today that it no longer has the resources to carry out its typical investigations of Russian airstrikes, and is devoting its resources to the US-led coalition bombing campaign only.

Airwars, a civilian casualty monitor established by journalists in 2014, is now concentrating all of its detailed investigatory work, relied upon by NGOs, peace campaigners, and the media, on "an unprecedented number" of alleged Coalition civilian casualty events.

For a small team, operating on an annual budget of less than $200,000, there just aren't enough resources to continue the detailed assessment of alleged Russian actions in Syria, project leader Chris Woods told Motherboard over the phone today.

"Currently, for March, we're tracking more than 100 alleged [civilian casualty] events for the Coalition so far, and around 50 alleged incidents from Russia this month," said Woods. "That's been the consistent pattern since January. By all accounts, Coalition strikes have been killing more civilians than Russian strikes. That trend is continuing."

As an all source investigator, Airwars' analysis of civilian casualty events is an exhaustive and time-consuming process.

"The first part is tracking the allegations. Our Iraqi and Syrian researchers track media and social media reports, militant rebel reports, and military reports," Woods said.

"That process will continue for Russia. We'll still be tracking that data, but the much more time consuming part of that is doing very detailed assessments of those allegations." These assessments are what Airwars is suspending for now, in preparation for focusing entirely on US Coalition activities.

"Once we've identified an alleged incident, our researchers will then dive deeply into the cases and search through local media and social media reports, trying to find other sources, corroboration, contested claims and so on," said Woods.

"It can take a significant period of time to burrow down into these allegations. A lot of material is on local sites, local social media sites, posted to YouTube, it takes a great deal of time to pull that information together."

Woods told Motherboard that Airwars probably has around one million words of public data on specific Russian and Coalition allegations on the Airwars website, alongside thousands of archived photographs and videos.

"It's a huge operation just to track this as a resource and to ensure it's permanently and properly archived," he said. "That's the challenge, when the numbers are so crazy from the Coalition, with such limited resources, it's something we've had to pause."

Airwars intends on resuming detailed assessments of Russian strike allegations in the near future, and is in the process of finding potential funders for new resources focused on tracking Moscow's military actions.

"The decision to temporarily suspend our Russia strike assessments has been a very difficult one to take. Moscow is still reportedly killing hundreds of civilians in Syria every month," the watchdog said in a media statement on its website. "But with Coalition casualty claims escalating so steeply—and with very limited Airwars resources—we believe our key focus at present needs to be on the US-led alliance."

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-us-is-bombing-syria-so-much-that-watchdogs-cant-keep-up?utm_source=vicefbus
 

fuji

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https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...rikes-on-mosul-could-be-worst-since-1991.html

Funny how all the usual suspects whine like stuck pigs when Russians and Syrians cause civilian casualties when killing islamist fanatics, but its ok when the US does it. I for one accept the fact that this is unavoidable when trying to retake cities.
Russia used banned cluster bombs on civilians, targeted hospitals, etc., it's nothing like accidentally hitting the wrong target. The difference between war crime and collateral damage is intentionality or at the very least negligence.

Did the US know or reasonably expect there would be civilians there, and if so was the anticipated military gain proportional to the anticipated harm to civilians?

When Russia shot down that plane in the Ukraine I doubt it was intentional. When they attached cluster bombs to their jets as dropped them on Aleppo it certainly was. The former was unfortunate, maybe incompetent, but unlikely criminal. The latter was certainly a crime.

Until you can answer these questions about this case you can't claim it's the same.
 

SkyRider

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A couple of plausible reasons for civilian casualties.

1) ISIS (DAESH) intentionally killing civilians and blaming the Americans.
2) Daesh deliberately putting civilians in harm's way.

Meanwhile, Iraqi special forces found a large grave containing at least 6,000 bodies. Western liberals will probably blame the U.S. for their deaths as well.
 

basketcase

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https://www.thestar.com/news/world/...rikes-on-mosul-could-be-worst-since-1991.html

Funny how all the usual suspects whine like stuck pigs when Russians and Syrians cause civilian casualties when killing islamist fanatics, but its ok when the US does it. I for one accept the fact that this is unavoidable when trying to retake cities.
Aren't you the guy who was denying that Russia was butchering civilians?

And yes, on the scale of issues, Russia never bothering to even examine civilian casualties is far worse than the US trying to find out what went wrong.
 

SuperCharge

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A couple of plausible reasons for civilian casualties.

1) ISIS (DAESH) intentionally killing civilians and blaming the Americans.
2) Daesh deliberately putting civilians in harm's way.

Meanwhile, Iraqi special forces found a large grave containing at least 6,000 bodies. Western liberals will probably blame the U.S. for their deaths as well.
If you read my post above, the OP's story has major flaws in it. U might have missed it, but one of the reasons for the casualties was due to US targetting an ISIS vehicle and that vehicle was loaded with explosives, pulverizing the nearby houses who had over 100 ppl in there. Also, the casualty # has changed 3 times already.
 

Frankfooter

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If you read my post above, the OP's story has major flaws in it. U might have missed it, but one of the reasons for the casualties was due to US targetting an ISIS vehicle and that vehicle was loaded with explosives, pulverizing the nearby houses who had over 100 ppl in there. Also, the casualty # has changed 3 times already.
Depends on whether you're reading the US army press releases or reports from people on the ground there.
 

SuperCharge

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Depends on whether you're reading the US army press releases or reports from people on the ground there.
The article I posted claims it's information comes from witnesses on the ground like this one -> "Those findings, along with witness accounts, led the team to believe that ISIS fighters had blown up the home. fighters were shooting at aircraft above them when an "explosion happened," she said."Some people I talked to said the building started falling down on them. Some saw that truck that was parked on the street explode"

And from the Col. Muntathar Al-Shamari, the head of the Iraqi Counterterrorism Unit in Mosul, ->"prior to the airstrike, Iraqi counterterrorism forces had asked the US-led coalition to engage an ISIS vehicle that had been loaded with explosives.
"When the (vehicle) was struck, it exploded, destroying one or two of the houses next to where families were hiding," he said.
Al-Shamari characterized the report of 200 dead as an exaggeration."

No comment from US officials as of yet. Probably waiting on the investigation to be completed.
 

Frankfooter

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The article I posted claims it's information comes from witnesses on the ground like this one -> "Those findings, along with witness accounts, led the team to believe that ISIS fighters had blown up the home. fighters were shooting at aircraft above them when an "explosion happened," she said."Some people I talked to said the building started falling down on them. Some saw that truck that was parked on the street explode"

And from the Col. Muntathar Al-Shamari, the head of the Iraqi Counterterrorism Unit in Mosul, ->"prior to the airstrike, Iraqi counterterrorism forces had asked the US-led coalition to engage an ISIS vehicle that had been loaded with explosives.
"When the (vehicle) was struck, it exploded, destroying one or two of the houses next to where families were hiding," he said.
Al-Shamari characterized the report of 200 dead as an exaggeration."

No comment from US officials as of yet. Probably waiting on the investigation to be completed.
Killing civilians because there are militants nearby is still killing civilians.
Apart from possible war crimes (though the US has deals to exempt them), killing civilians in a place you are supposed to be 'aiding' only antagonizes the locals.
Prepare for more Muslim immigrants and more people angry with the US.

Is that acceptable to you?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/...-isis-civilian-deaths-us-airstrikes.html?_r=0
 

SuperCharge

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Killing civilians because there are militants nearby is still killing civilians.
Apart from possible war crimes (though the US has deals to exempt them), killing civilians in a place you are supposed to be 'aiding' only antagonizes the locals.
Prepare for more Muslim immigrants and more people angry with the US.

Is that acceptable to you?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/...-isis-civilian-deaths-us-airstrikes.html?_r=0
This isn't about what I find acceptable it's about getting the facts straight, a few contradictions in the 2 stories.

I'm not a big fan of war to be quite honest with you.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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Aren't you the guy who was denying that Russia was butchering civilians?

And yes, on the scale of issues, Russia never bothering to even examine civilian casualties is far worse than the US trying to find out what went wrong.
I said it was part of the reality of taking a major urban area. They don't aim to kill civilians, but its unavoidable.
 
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