The 2017 Blue Jay season thread

261252 said:

While I may be wrong of course, Buck Martinez agrees with me so my opinion is not naive.

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You seem to have a thing for Buck. As a commentator /play by play guy he is pretty good, not a Dan Shulman but certainly acceptable.
As a manager he was 100-115 with the Jays in 2001 - 2002 before being fired and replaced with Carlos Tosca.(yes I had to look it up!)
Carlos was replaced in 2004 by John Gibbons and he was 305 - 305 from 2004 -2008 Gibbons was rehired in 2013 and from then his record is 339-309.
My point is Gibbons numbers as a manager are better than Bucks.
Having said that, I have no problem with a team playing small ball if that is what they are built to do. I don't think this team is built to play small ball.
I do agree that there are times when some of the power hitters could and should look to take a pitch the other way, however, with pitchers throwing 90 plus and having great second and third pitches that is not easy to do.
You mention Pompey, agree he has speed, but, he is biggest asset is that of pinch runner. He has to pick his game up or he will be back in the minors, again!

Dawgger said:

You seem to have a thing for Buck. As a commentator /play by play guy he is pretty good, not a Dan Shulman but certainly acceptable.

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He actually knows stuff and is not afraid to speak his mind. The rest of the Jays commentators are useless

Dawgger said:

My point is Gibbons numbers as a manager are better than Bucks. .

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Interesting but different teams

Dawgger said:

I do agree that there are times when some of the power hitters could and should look to take a pitch the other way,

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Then we agree, I am not suggesting anything else than situational small ball.

Dawgger said:

however, with pitchers throwing 90 plus and having great second and third pitches that is not easy to do.

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Perhaps you are right and I am asking players to do something they cannot do. In playoffs EE hit dramatic homer by swinging away when ball to right field would have won game. It just seems to me he would be more likely to loft a fly to right than hit homer to left esp when they are pitching him away

Dawgger said:

You mention Pompey, agree he has speed, but, he is biggest asset is that of pinch runner. He has to pick his game up or he will be back in the minors, again!

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Agree . He should be traded to a team that wants to use him. Keeping someone in the minors in case you might need him is slavery when another team would play him in the majors. How would you feel about it if you were Pompey?

261252 said:

1. He actually knows stuff and is not afraid to speak his mind. The rest of the Jays commentators are useless

2. He should be traded to a team that wants to use him. Keeping someone in the minors in case you might need him is slavery when another team would play him in the majors. How would you feel about it if you were Pompey?

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1. When was the last time Buck Martinez was critical of the Blue Jays?

2. Mr. Pompey might want to take that up with his union representative.

shack said:

I think the old saying is appropriate, the manager gets too much praise when they win and too much blame when they lose. Is it Perry who may challenge me here?

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Nope! I happen to agree with that old wisdom...

From what I see and hear, Gibby is a very nice guy. His knowledge of the game seems very thorough though I think he makes his fair share of mistakes -- but who does not? And I agree that us Armchair General Managers don't have access to the well researched information that the organization makes available to him.

And he is probably a good guy to play for in the sense that he does not bother the players and leaves them alone. Who does not love a boss like that?

My problem with Gibby has always been (and still is) that he does not know how to motivate his players; he does not know how to get the best from them.

Yogi Bear was right: assuming you have the talent, once you get to MLB 90% of the game is between the ears. All good coaches that I have known or heard about -- whether in sports, personal development, business or whatever (and I have done lots of coaching, too) -- know and understand how to get inside the head of those they coach. That is how they get the most from them and get their teams working well together. This is where, in my opinion, Gibby does not have a clue...

And the reason I think he does not have a clue is because I really listen to what he says. In the "arts and sciences" of cross examination, you quickly learn to listen very carefully to what a person is really saying because, in what they say, they tell you exactly how they think.

And, BTW, it is not just in the words... it is, much more so, in the voice and body language. :wink:

Perry

Perry Mason said:

Nope! I happen to agree with that old wisdom...

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Actually, I was referring to my defending Gibby as opposed to that old tome. I though you've been a bigger basher of him in the past.

Overall, I respect the opinions you've expressed in your post.

One glaring error, though. I don't think that Yogi Bear ever made it to MLB as a manager. Never made it past the NPABL (National Park Association Baseball League). I think Jellystone only won one championship under him. Boo Boo was his bench coach.

shack said:

One glaring error, though. I don't think that Yogi Bear ever made it to MLB as a manager.

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But I am not going to edit it!

Perry

shack said:

Actually, I was referring to my defending Gibby as opposed to that old tome. I though you've been a bigger basher of him in the past.

Overall, I respect the opinions you've expressed in your post.

One glaring error, though. I don't think that Yogi Bear ever made it to MLB as a manager. Never made it past the NPABL (National Park Association Baseball League). I think Jellystone only won one championship under him. Boo Boo was his bench coach.

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I thought Boo Boo was his pitching coach? And, what'd HE ever do in MLB?
The guy's a chump....

gcostanza said:

1. When was the last time Buck Martinez was critical of the Blue Jays?

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He constantly explains why he disagrees with Gibby concerning small ball which is also my pet peeve with Gibby.

gcostanza said:

2. Mr. Pompey might want to take that up with his union representative.

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agree 100%. To suffer in the minors because your team may need you at some later date when some other team could use you in the majors now is total worker explotation BS

261252 said:

He constantly explains why he disagrees with Gibby concerning small ball which is also my pet peeve with Gibby.


agree 100%. To suffer in the minors because your team may need you at some later date when some other team could use you in the majors now is total worker explotation BS

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1. He second guesses Gibby, anyone can be critical after the play.

2. The issue with Pompey has nothing to do with slavery (seriously?!), you were critical of the team holding him in the minors.
He's holding himself in Buffalo by not being good enough.
Again, if there's an issue, it's between Pompey & MLBPA, the union negotiates on behalf of the players as to their rights.

If the Jays deem Pompey stays in AAA, then he stays in AAA. They under no obligation to justify it. Mind you, to maintain goodwill they need to explain to him why it is good for the team and/or good for Pompey. The MLBPA would laugh at his complaint. His only leverage is if his agent can convince the team that it is in their best interest to promote him. If as 261252 says he could help another team, then that team needs to make a bid for him. It is not the Jays' responsibility.

With what he's shown in the past, he is not major league worthy. Hopefully he has improved his hitting. We could use his speed, but need more than his speed. Maybe he is more suited for the NL.

1 You are hired by a company in sales.

2 They do not need another highly paid salesman but they may in the future so they make you an office boy.

3 Another company would make you a highly paid salesman but you are not allowed to go because your contract does not allow you to go.

4 While you did sign the contract, you were drafted by your company so you had no choice

5 You will only have a couple of years in sales, if you can get the promotion, as competition from the upcoming salesmen will force you out.

6 You stay an office boy until all hope gone, you quit broke with no future.

Same thing as what Pompey is going through, no??

shack said:

If as 261252 says he could help another team, then that team needs to make a bid for him. .

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Jays are under no obligation to accept bid.

Pretend ownership does not personally like Pompey and refuses trade because they are narcissistic with sociopath tendencies like Donald Trump

Now stop pretending because this situation happens ( think Harold Ballard).

Pompey aside, it is the principal that sucks.

Union gives small concern to minor leaguers on the bubble like Pompey. They struggle at less than minimum wage. I heard Dickey address this issue and he said it was their choice. For a bright guy that was a thoughtless thing to say. Like how many choices are there if you want to play baseball?

Insidious Von said:

Rogers wanted Hazel Mae to be the field reporter. With the fantastic interviews she's done (most notably with the adorable Barry Bonds), she's earned it.

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Baseball is back on TV! Hazel Mae is back on TV, looking even MILFier than ever! Oh, the things I want to do with her... :biggrin-new:

shack said:

If the Jays deem Pompey stays in AAA, then he stays in AAA. They under no obligation to justify it. Mind you, to maintain goodwill they need to explain to him why it is good for the team and/or good for Pompey. The MLBPA would laugh at his complaint. His only leverage is if his agent can convince the team that it is in their best interest to promote him. If as 261252 says he could help another team, then that team needs to make a bid for him. It is not the Jays' responsibility.

With what he's shown in the past, he is not major league worthy. Hopefully he has improved his hitting. We could use his speed, but need more than his speed. Maybe he is more suited for the NL.

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If another team is/was interested in Pompey, or any Jays player, they can contact Atkins /Shapiro and attempt to trade for him. I believe Pompey is either out of options or close to it so if the Jays don't see him as a major leaguer; he certainly would be available and the price would be pretty cheap.

261252 said:

1 You are hired by a company in sales.

2 They do not need another highly paid salesman but they may in the future so they make you an office boy.

3 Another company would make you a highly paid salesman but you are not allowed to go because your contract does not allow you to go.

4 While you did sign the contract, you were drafted by your company so you had no choice

5 You will only have a couple of years in sales, if you can get the promotion, as competition from the upcoming salesmen will force you out.

6 You stay an office boy until all hope gone, you quit broke with no future.

Same thing as what Pompey is going through, no??

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Unfortunately, because this person did not sign up as part of a workers association that negotiates on behalf of ALL the other workers in the industry and with ALL the other employers in the industry this is not analogous. As well there is a defined period of time that a player is required to stay with his team at which point he can leave and go wherever he wants. This is not forever.
Hopefully he won't go broke and starve on his $507,000 contract he signed last year. If he felt he was being poorly treated he didn't have to sign and he had the choice to select all of those other teams that he'd have a better chance with.

Sorry, your analogy doesn't stand up of scrutiny.

Pompey is pre-arb eligible and has one year left of minor league options. Jays can bounce him back and forth from the minors this year all they want. He makes league minimum salary and can't dictate anything due to service time.
Those are the rules all teams and the union play by.
A couple years ago the Cubs kept Kris Bryant in the minors for an extra couples weeks to delay his Arb-eligibility. They basically got an extra year of team control. It's good business and beneficial to the team to take advantage and maximize roster flexibility.

Kris Bryant has been proven to be a valuable big leaguer. Pompey has not yet.
Most teams have an athletic outfielder in AAA that profiles the same tools as Pompey, He wouldn't fetch much in a trade. Keeping him for depth this year is the wiser move.

When the Jays had all those outfield injuries last year , they elected to go with scrubs like Junior Lake and Andy Burns. Pompey never got a sniff, which should tell you how high Jays management ranks him on the depth chart.

Pompey was drafted 7 years ago , he's been in the minor league system long enough. If he doesn't impress this year he'll end up like Travis Snider or Anthony Gose, once highly coveted outfield prospects who were traded away because the clock ran out on them.

shack said:

Unfortunately, because this person did not sign up as part of a workers association that negotiates on behalf of ALL the other workers in the industry and with ALL the other employers in the industry this is not analogous. As well there is a defined period of time that a player is required to stay with his team at which point he can leave and go wherever he wants. This is not forever.
Hopefully he won't go broke and starve on his $507,000 contract he signed last year. If he felt he was being poorly treated he didn't have to sign and he had the choice to select all of those other teams that he'd have a better chance with.

Sorry, your analogy doesn't stand up of scrutiny.

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Agree about Pompey. I stand corrected as he willingly signed a contract for half a mil. I chose the wrong example

But it is the principle of being drafted then forced to be with that team x years and those few years can make or break a borderline player.

As well, player is forced to be part of union so the union agreement player is forced to be part of does not make the situation correct .

I have small doubt some player x spent career in minors then retired with team y when team z would have brought him up . Some players perform better when promoted to the bigs, so player x will never know if it would have worked out

Does not seem right

261252 said:

Agree about Pompey. I stand corrected as he willingly signed a contract for half a mil. I chose the wrong example

But it is the principle of being drafted then forced to be with that team x years and those few years can make or break a borderline player.

As well, player is forced to be part of union so the union agreement player is forced to be part of does not make the situation correct .

I have small doubt some player x spent career in minors then retired with team y when team z would have brought him up . Some players perform better when promoted to the bigs, so player x will never know if it would have worked out

Does not seem right

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It seems that the players, the owners and the league all feel it is fair, or at least mostly fair.

That's good enough for me and should be for everyone else.

Keep in mind how much time and money these teams spend on helping a player become major league worthy. Training facilities, travel expenses, accommodations, food, paying for equipment and huge sums of money on coaches' salaries as well as salaries and signing bonuses the players receive and I am sure I am leaving stuff out. They are entitled to retain their services for at least a period of time for their investments in these raw recruits. 99.9% of these guys would never even have a chance of seeing one MLB game without the hours upon hours of coaching development they receive not only to help them become better players but also become adult men. If anything, the players should be grateful that they are given a chance to achieve their dreams.

The teams deserve something back in return and a few years of "servitude" sounds reasonable.

261252 said:

1 You are hired by a company in sales.

2 They do not need another highly paid salesman but they may in the future so they make you an office boy.

3 Another company would make you a highly paid salesman but you are not allowed to go because your contract does not allow you to go.

4 While you did sign the contract, you were drafted by your company so you had no choice

5 You will only have a couple of years in sales, if you can get the promotion, as competition from the upcoming salesmen will force you out.

6 You stay an office boy until all hope gone, you quit broke with no future.

Same thing as what Pompey is going through, no??

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You do realize, though drafted, it's not a military style draft?

Young Mr. Pompey had the option (still does) of going to school & following a different career path.
Also, he could change companies (to use your analogy) and experience the delights of a company in the Far East.
Korea & Japan have wonderful professional baseball leagues.