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Tiananmen 2.0 in Hong Kong

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eznutz

eznutz

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Tear gas fired at chaotic Hong Kong democracy protests

Police repeatedly fired tear gas after tens of thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators brought parts of central Hong Kong to a standstill Sunday in protest at Beijing's refusal to grant the city unfettered democracy.

The rare chaotic scenes -- in which crowds fought running battles with riot police in the streets of the international financial hub -- forced protest leaders to warn supporters to "retreat and save their lives" if rubber bullets were fired.

Protesters screamed "Shame!" at officers, many in gas masks and riot gear, as they tried to shield themselves from the clouds of gas which was last used in Hong Kong in 2005.

It marked a dramatic escalation of protests in the city, which rarely sees such violence, after a tense week of largely contained student-led demonstrations exploded into mass angry street protests.


China says opposes 'illegal behavior' in Hong Kong

China said on Sunday it opposes all kinds of illegal behavior in Hong Kong that undermines social stability as pro-democracy supporters geared up for a showdown with police as they push demands for greater political freedoms in the former British colony.

A spokesperson for China's Hong Kong and Macau Affairs Office added that the central government fully supports the Hong Kong government's handling of the matter in accordance with the law.

Violent clashes between Hong Kong riot police and students galvanized tens of thousands of supporters of the city's pro-democracy movement and kick-started a plan to lock down the heart of the Asian financial center early on Sunday.
 
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George The Curious

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hardly tiananmen. I don't see any tanks and army shooting people. A lot of HK people think mainland Chinese are a threat to their way of life, and want more autonomy from mainland, which is clearly impossible as HK is legally part of China and there is nothing short of trying to gain independence will change that.
 
canada-man

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Autonomy_Movement

Goals

Universal suffrage, allowing a fully democratically-elected Chief Executive and Legislative Council.

The Hong Kong government's policy-making must not stray from the goal of securing the long term interests of the Hong Kong people.

Implement long-term planning for housing and property policies, ensuring Hong Kong People access to housing.

Revive Hong Kong's agriculture and industries.

Reconfigure Hong Kong's migration policy, taking back the power of immigration approval from Mainland China.

Reflect on the implementation of the Hong Kong Basic Law, and perfect the constitutional process.

Defense of the Hong Kong City-State. Reject "Mainlandising" policies such as the Co-ordinated Development of the Greater Pearl River Delta Townships Scheme, and the "brainwashing education" of the Moral and National Education Subject.

Create a Hong Kong languages policy, defending Hong Kong's local culture.

Reflect on currency and monetary policies, reinforcing financial sovereignty.
 
eznutz

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Likelihood of a 'mini-Tiananmen' worries government, Regina Ip says

The potential for a "mini-Tiananmen" movement to evolve from pro-democracy class boycotts at local secondary schools and universities worries the government, a former chief of the Security Bureau says.

Suspicions have also been aroused in the corridors of power that the students are becoming a tool for Occupy Central to boost its fight for genuine universal suffrage, because it has failed to mobilise support from the middle class, according to executive councillor Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee.

But she doubts the pressure will succeed in making Beijing cave in and retract a reform framework laid down on August 31 - ruling out a genuine choice of candidates for voters in the 2017 chief executive poll - despite the political tensions weighing on the Hong Kong government.
 
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George The Curious

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I doubt they will succeed. China will flex its military muscle if things really get out of control. Expect Stock market to be volatile over next few weeks.
 
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SkyRider

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canada-man said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Autonomy_Movement

Goals

Universal suffrage, allowing a fully democratically-elected Chief Executive and Legislative Council.

The Hong Kong government's policy-making must not stray from the goal of securing the long term interests of the Hong Kong people.

Implement long-term planning for housing and property policies, ensuring Hong Kong People access to housing.

Revive Hong Kong's agriculture and industries.

Reconfigure Hong Kong's migration policy, taking back the power of immigration approval from Mainland China.

Reflect on the implementation of the Hong Kong Basic Law, and perfect the constitutional process.

Defense of the Hong Kong City-State. Reject "Mainlandising" policies such as the Co-ordinated Development of the Greater Pearl River Delta Townships Scheme, and the "brainwashing education" of the Moral and National Education Subject.

Create a Hong Kong languages policy, defending Hong Kong's local culture.

Reflect on currency and monetary policies, reinforcing financial sovereignty.
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The Hong Kong Chinese learned all this stuff from the British. Damn Brits!
 
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wilbur

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In a recent poll, HK residents were asked if they would return to British rule if that was possible. Something like 80% responded Yes.

Under British rule however, the HK governor was never elected, but appointed by London. Hmmmmmm...............
 
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George The Curious

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Last edited:
Polaris

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George The Curious said:
I doubt they will succeed. China will flex its military muscle if things really get out of control. Expect Stock market to be volatile over next few weeks.
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I really doubt China is going to do anything to make the situation worst, or better.

Simply put, Hong Kong is just not important enough anymore.

One underlying current I believe that is going on here, which I could be wrong, but I do not think so, is this is a class struggle. Life is gotten really tough for the poor in Hong Kong. It was not pleasant before, but now it seems impossible, especially the future for young people without education. There is no hope.

Actually, there is hope for young people without education in Hong Kong, move to China and find a job. But they do not want to do that. They rather protest like the leftist do in this country, only to find themselves opposed by fellow Hong Kongers, who are from the richer class.

If sit in China, you cannot help but have a chuckle at all of this, because this is the teaching of Chairman Mao ... ENDLESS CLASS STRUGGLE.

Thank god it is happening not in China, but else where, like Hong Kong , and places like Toronto.

Who says god don't have sense of humour. Black humour that is.

:Eek:
 
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wilbur

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George The Curious said:
I doubt they will succeed. China will flex its military muscle if things really get out of control. Expect Stock market to be volatile over next few weeks.
Click to expand...
China would never flex its military muscle because it would make things there terrible for all, and would turn Taiwan totally off reunification (The Kuomintang party has been discussing reunification with Beijing for the last decade). The reason for Tiananmen is because the regime (Dengxiaoping) was fearing civil war and collapse. There was a dispute developing at the highest levels of the Communist party, and even some talk of dissention within the PLA itself; in fact, after the shooting started by the 27th Army, other PLA units were about to intervene against it and defend the students. The instability has to be put down quick.

As for HK, this is just really a bun fight. Nothing is going to change and things will resume as before. Whatever Beijing says, HK people will continue to pretend that they are still part of the British Empire, Chinese style.
 
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ericladd83

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Yes. The current HK leader is elected. However, the candidates were and will be appointed by the China government only. Thus, there is no difference.
The point is which leader you would prefer? One from the democratic suzerain country or the dictatorship motherland?

In many ways, I would prefer one from my own land.
 
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wilbur

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The Chief Executive is elected by an electoral college, composed of the elected members of 38 sectors of HK's social, labour, corporate and commercial community. These members are not appointed by Beijing, although some sectors, such as the Chinese Medicine and the Corporate sectors tend to tilt more towards Beijing.

I believe that the argument revolves around the election of the Chief Executive by universal sufferage.

It's as if there was a protest in the US about electing the US president through universal sufferage..... he's not, since he's elected also by an eletoral college.
 
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George The Curious

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ericladd83 said:
Yes. The current HK leader is elected. However, the candidates were and will be appointed by the China government only. Thus, there is no difference.
The point is which leader you would prefer? One from the democratic suzerain country or the dictatorship motherland?

In many ways, I would prefer one from my own land.
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I wouldn't call China dictatorship. It's more like a benign authoritarian. I think the west is being brainwashed to believe democracy is the only way, but in truth there are many more failed democracies than successful authoritarian in the developing world.
 
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whitewaterguy

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T 2.0 has the potential to get way farther out of hand than T 1.0. It's only a matter of time
Until they decide to drop the hammer
 
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oil&gas

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Tiananmen I was a threat to the communist party. The pro-reform
Chief Secretary and the progressive fraction of the party were purged
as a result of their failure to pacify the protesting students. Tiananmen II
could cause chaos and social unrest in HK but poses no more a threat to the
PRC than perhaps a loss of face on the world stage of politics. As oppressive
and brutal it could be the Chinese Communists are also pragmatic and have
thick skin. In fact they were remarkably restrained back in 1967 when they
placed orders against the red guard from joining the anti-British uprising that
was way more violent than what we see today in HK. Most likely the PRC
will do no more than leaving the matter to the HKsar government
so long as HK is intact.
 
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evodevo

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wilbur said:
The Chief Executive is elected by an electoral college, composed of the elected members of 38 sectors of HK's social, labour, corporate and commercial community. These members are not appointed by Beijing, although some sectors, such as the Chinese Medicine and the Corporate sectors tend to tilt more towards Beijing.

I believe that the argument revolves around the election of the Chief Executive by universal sufferage.

It's as if there was a protest in the US about electing the US president through universal sufferage..... he's not, since he's elected also by an eletoral college.
Click to expand...
Yes that's right - it's not as if Presidential candidates are elected by the people, they're elected from within the party.

And there's some grossly misinformed people here - the candidates aren't going to be "appointed" by Beijing as if they pick and choose whomever. The candidates must gain a MINIMUM of 50% support from the committee members (so just half) to be approved as a candidate - to me, this is still progress in the right direction and a fair compromise if you ask me.

Anyway it's a little misleading to keep calling this a pro-democracy movement as if the people HK do not enjoy freedom of press, religion, a separate and well functioning legal system, a free media, etc they enjoy all the hall marks of a liberal democratic society, except for universal suffrage - which in itself is hardly the cornerstone of democracy.

The people of Gaza got to vote in Hamas - would people say the people of Gaza live in a democratic society? Don't think so. Democracy is a lot more than voting.

Love all the idiots who keep thinking China is going to "crack down" or "lay down the hammer" at some point, if it gets worse the HK police will just "crack down" on them just like the police in any other country would. But China won't be sending in the army.
 
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whitewaterguy

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evodevo said:
Love all the idiots who keep thinking China is going to "crack down" or "lay down the hammer" at some point, if it gets worse the HK police will just "crack down" on them just like the police in any other country would. But China won't be sending in the army.
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When the hammer drops, there will be deaths. It won't matter one iota as to who was holding the hammer at the time. If things spiral out of control it'll be nasty and there will be geo-political ramifications. Seems to be a global trend

Love these goofballs who are trying to predict the outcome of a Checkers game, when the games being played are chess
 
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wilbur

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George The Curious said:
I wouldn't call China dictatorship. It's more like a benign authoritarian. I think the west is being brainwashed to believe democracy is the only way, but in truth there are many more failed democracies than successful authoritarian in the developing world.
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China is not a dictatorship. A dictator is an absolute leader who is president for life. No Chinese President or Prime Minister has ruled China more than one term since Mao.

China is a one party state, not a dictatorship.

But if you want examples of real dictators, you can start with our allies, such as Saudi Arabia (A dictatorship masquerading as a royal fairy tale), along with the Gulf States and Oman, just a few examples.
 
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