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US looking for a more flexible Pope

cyrus

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US looking for a more flexible Pope

Vatican, April 17 - Christian world await white smoke from the cardinals' conclave chimney in two days, but Washington continues efforts to use its influence in electing the late Pope's successor.

US administration is looking into a Pope who will give moral and devine legitimacy to Washington's war-mongering policies throughout the world, a green light which Vatican has never signaled to Washington, notably in US unilateral war on Iraq.

The United States is keeping close but concerning eye on the Vatican's papacy.

President George W. Bush has held talks with American cardinals, specially the veterans who could have a say owing to age and influence before visiting Rome to attend the late Pope's funeral, according to an Italian private TV network.

Vatican's future pontiff, and the stands he adopts against US policies are of high importance to White House, John Allen, a prominent American expert in Vatican affairs said.

US dreams a flexible Pope who would adopt a more moderate policy than Pope when dealing with international issues including poverty and war.

The United States, and President George W. Bush in person, has intensified efforts to increase their penetration over other countries according to Mrs. Aeiel de Mon, the best selling La Tribune French daily reporter in Rome.

She said the new Pope will have a big challenge in face of the growing fever for converting into Islam in most world countries, mainly in Asia and Africa.
 

Truncador

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cyrus said:
US looking for a more flexible Pope

The United States is keeping close but concerning eye on the Vatican's papacy.
As well they should. A Pope with incorrect views on, say, free enterprise or American foreign policy could do a lot of damage, especially in light of America's growing Catholic population. Among other problems an irresponsible Pope could cause would be the revival of dormant, but deeply-rooted, anti-Catholic bigotry in America.

An option for the government is to revive and lay claim to the traditional right of exclusion whereby the biggest world powers reserved a veto on Papal appointments. Although not Catholic, the President is in a unique position to lay claim to the ancient title of "most Christian ruler"- not least of all because the American State is the only thing standing between the Cross and the crescent moon right now...
 

Caveman

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A more flexible Pope??

Cardinal Fang would probably be the most flexible Pope we can have.
 

WoodPeckr

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As they say, "Bush will have to wait till Hell freezes over" on his hope for a new more 'flexible' Pope!

Roman Catholicism and GWB policy are diametrically opposed to each other, always were and always will be, no ifs ands or buts about it.


The ultra-conservatives in the Roman Curia would make Rush Limbaugh (had to make the Limbaugh reference for bots sake) look like a flaming Liberal!
But to their credit the Curia are dedicated to universal peace, anti-materialism, good will and being their brothers keepers....values GWB only gives 'lip service' to as he expands his self serving unilateral policies.
 

danmand

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I nominate Original Serena
 

Don

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WoodPeckr said:
As they say, "Bush will have to wait till Hell freezes over" on his hope for a new more 'flexible' Pope!

Roman Catholicism and GWB policy are diametrically opposed to each other, always were and always will be, no ifs ands or buts about it.
Not on social issues. They are on the same page on many social issues like anti-abortion, anti-gay, abstinance over safe sex, lack of support for "right-to-die" (The Pope supported Schiavo's feed tube being reinserted), etc....
 

WoodPeckr

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Don said:
Not on social issues. They are on the same page on many social issues like anti-abortion, anti-gay, abstinance over safe sex, lack of support for "right-to-die" (The Pope supported Schiavo's feed tube being reinserted), etc....
On those limited issues GWB & Rome are in more agreement than many of the Catholics in North America, you forgot the issues of anti-birth control, anti-condom use and divorce. Don't forget the Pope had to lay down the Papal Law a few times to the US Catholic Church faithful and their Bishops when it appeared, to Rome at least, that those in N America were showing signs of straying from orthodox RC doctrines. Believe a couple Papal Encyclicals were aimed at US problems the Pope felt needed to be addressed/fixed. As far as Rome is concerned, the US is still regarded as a pagan nation in need of conversion.
 

Truncador

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Reflecting its origins as a feudal and theocratic institution, the Roman Church tends to be hostile to free enterprise and Machiavellism. A Pope in whom these tendencies found expression would necessarily end up at cross purposes with Bushism, for which free enterprise and Machiavellism (in the form of unilateralism, doctrine of pre-emptive strikes, etc.) are cornerstones and a lot more fundamental than sexual conservatism and the like.
 

onthebottom

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I'd be happy with any choice that would pay some real attention to the Pedophile Predators that roam free in the US Catholic church.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
Boy is this ever such a bullshit comment. OTB are you aware that the same % of Pentocostal Ministers in the US have faced the same charges as the Catholic Church, or that a higher % of teachers are accused of sexual abuse of their students than the Catholic Church.

Don't get me wrong any abuse of children is truly discusting and how the Catholic Church handled the problem was even more discusting, but instead of pointing out one group, perhaps Americans should look into why they have the highest rate of sexual crimes against children in the world.


bbk
It's the hide-the-pedophile shell game that the Cardinals play that I find inexcusable from the Catholic Church.

OTB
 

n_v

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bbking said:
... instead of pointing out one group, perhaps Americans should look into why they have the highest rate of sexual crimes against children in the world.
Stands and claps. (applause)
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
I think I talked about that - in fact it was only two Cardinals that played that game in the States out of 14. How much of the Pentocastals went not reported - a fair bit and that's because these church leaders like all adults take the word of children at a discount to that of adults.

Again, the US has amongst the worst record of western nations for child abuse and yet nothing is said about that. That's not to say that Canada has clean hands but it is a subject we collectively like to blame others than address heads up.

Sad as it is to say, the Catholic Church is no worse than many other org. that deal with children - in fact the worst org. for child abuse allegations in the US and Canada are Boy Scout leaders.

So blaming the Catholic Church in whole for the problem of child abuse is just another way of burying ones head in the sand.


bbk



I didn't blame the Catholic Church for the "problem of child abuse" I said I wanted a Pope that would take the issue seriously.

For example: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/08/06/eveningnews/main566978.shtml

which includes:

"The confidential Vatican document, obtained by CBS News, lays out a church policy that calls for absolute secrecy when it comes to sexual abuse by priests - anyone who speaks out could be thrown out of the church.

The policy was written in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani.

The document, once "stored in the secret archives" of the Vatican, focuses on crimes initiated as part of the confessional relationship and what it calls the "worst crime": sexual assault committed by a priest" or "attempted by him with youths of either sex or with brute animals."

Bishops are instructed to pursue these cases "in the most secretive way...restrained by a perpetual silence...and everyone {including the alleged victim) ...is to observe the strictest secret, which is commonly regarded as a secret of the Holy Office...under the penalty of excommunication."

Larry Drivon, a lawyer who represents alleged victims, said, “This document is significant because it's a blueprint for deception.” "


And there have been 10 Bishops resign over this:

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/extras/bishops_map.htm

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
....and my response to that is that you still are forgetting that child abuse in the US is a major problem and one not limited to the Catholic Church.
I never addressed that, you're involved in verbal masturbation on this issue.

bbking said:
You are also forgetting that the Catholic Church has made changes to its structure in the US to ensure this doesn't happen again. Cardinal Law was removed and this was an extremely powerful Cardinal not only the US but in Rome as well and was replaced with a no comprimise Bishop who's task is to clean up the Church of Boston. The Church has also addressed the issue of not listining to child complaints and instead of moving the accused priest to another parish they now suspend that individual until the matter is resolved in the courts or internally. The Bishop conference held late last year also added that all reports of abuse will be reported to local authorities. A lot of steps have been made already and while more needs to be done, I think your selling Catholics short here.
Good, but given that much of this happened in the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s and we're just dealing with it now makes me think there may be an institutional bias towards silence and cover-up. To change this requires strong leadership from the top, especially in a command/control organization like the RCC.

bbking said:
The problem I have with your posts is that they try to paint the Catholic Church in the US as rift with Child abuse and it is not any different than any other org. that deals with children. The one good thing about narrow minded views about the US Catholic Church, is that the culture of not believing children when they report these problems will no longer be tolerated by the church. In fact John Paul 2 insisted on these changes.
While it may be true I have higher expectations of the Catholic Church than I do of the Boy Scouts I don't know that these are unreasonable. I hope the culture is changing, I just expressed a desire to see someone in Rome lead on the issue. What are the chances that this is/has been happening in other parts of the world where even more shame is associated with sex crimes?

bbking said:
Again, if you want to address child abuse let’s deal with the real problem - that the US has a horrible record amongst Western nations of child abuse in all sectors of society. I remember John Walsh speaking during the E. Smart case - he commented on Larry King that for every E. Smart case that is publically reported and followed by the media, there are 20 similar cases that are going on at the same time that are not reported. This is an issue that needs to handled properly and as a whole.
bbk
That wasn't my intention, I was, which is rare for this forum, staying on topic and commenting on a new Pope.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
Your all full of it - I'm just tired of all the BS about Catholics and child abuse. Anyways as for a more reasonable pope - looks like it didn't happen.


nnk
Dude, so much anger, I think you're going to break a record for longest period in history.....

OTB
 

WoodPeckr

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Pope Benedict XVI

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany became Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, one of the ultra-conservative hardliners in the Roman Curia will do very little for US desires for a more 'flexible' Pope.
 

onthebottom

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Interesting article in the National Review Online by my favorite author there:

April 20, 2005, 9:00 a.m.
B16 & Left-Wing Dreams
The new pope, no great shock.

Jonah Goldberg

Habemus Papam!

That's Latin for "We have a pope!" With those words the College of Cardinals announced that the world's Catholics have a new spiritual leader, former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

As the Vatican's chief defender of theological doctrine, it's no surprise he's already being condemned as a "traditionalist" and a "hardliner." Of course, if some of the modernizers had their way, a new pontiff would be announced with the declaration, "We got pope!" Or maybe "The pizzy is in the hizzy!" Then Janet Jackson and Justin Timberlake would bump and grind a bit before His Holiness rolled out in a newly pimped-out Pope-mobile.

But my guess is that won't be happening any time soon, and not just because Ratzinger's the new pope. Some believe there is a radical left wing in the Catholic Church that seeks to unravel the teachings of John Paul II, but this is an exaggeration of the Western — particularly, the American — press. The notion that you could find any cardinal eager to change church policy on abortion, for example, is simply a fantasy concocted by liberal journalists. Excepting, maybe, the issue of distributing condoms in Africa, it's hard to think of a hot-button social issue that divides the church's leadership a fraction as much as American editorial pages seem to suggest.

If a committee made up of Andrew Sullivan, Gary Wills, Andrew Greeley, Paul Begala, and Nancy Pelosi were given the power to select a pope from the current College of Cardinals, we would still have a pope opposed to abortion and gay marriage.

The issues that truly divide the church have to do with questions of local autonomy, global economics, and the like. It takes the solipsism of American liberals to imagine that simply because America is divided over certain issues, the Vatican must be, too. And it takes the ignorance of the American media to think that a "liberal" in America is a liberal in Rome, Buenos Aires or Lagos.

That said, there's still a good lesson for the American right and left to draw from Ratzinger's election. One of the most interesting aspects of his story is that he was, by all accounts, a liberal until the year 1968. But during student riots at Tübingen University, where he was teaching, he looked into the soul of the New Left and saw a deep void. "For so many years," he said in an interview years ago, "the 1968 revolution and the terror created — in the name of Marxist ideas — a radical attack on human freedom and dignity, a deep threat to all that is human."

Again, Americans tend to think of 1968 as a uniquely American upheaval during a uniquely American decade of unrest. Bobby Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr., and all that. But the reality is a bit different. The 1960s saw student uprisings not only in America but in France, Britain, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Germany, Senegal, Argentina, Indonesia, and Mexico. Obviously, each had its own unique flavor, but there was also something in the global water in the 1960s. What it was, exactly, is still hotly debated today. But the violence of '68ers surely had something to do with the comfort and guilt that comes from being the prosperous offspring of the World War II generation.

cont....

OTB
 

onthebottom

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Cont.....
Not everyone in the so-called New Left was physically violent, and by no means was every young person alive then a member of the New Left, but almost everyone in the so-called "generation of '68" was intellectually violent — to tradition, to old-fashioned notions of decency, to truth, etc. And a great many of them refused to draw principled distinctions between rhetorical violence and the real thing.

In America, students took over schools like Cornell University with rifles and threatened to kill professors they considered to be "reactionary." Many older liberals had minds so open, their brains fell out. Others recognized the threat posed by the new barbarians and almost instantaneously became "conservatives" or — shudder — neoconservatives because they chose to stand firm in support of American liberal institutions — institutions that, in the new climate, were defined as right wing and oppressive. Clinton Rossiter, the decent, humane liberal scholar of American politics, tried to reconcile these competing forces, and his failure made suicide all the more attractive as an option.

Cardinal Ratzinger is a veteran of similar struggles. Whether you think Pope Benedict represents a move toward steadying the civilizational pendulum or a major counter-swing depends on your own spot on the ideological spectrum. And while it is too soon to know whose version of Ratzinger Pope Benedict XVI will become — the radical Inquisitorial "enforcer" of cold steel doctrine or the humble and curious teacher — the lesson remains the same. Civilization is a balancing act. When you lose your balance on the tightrope, you must make great swings in your stance just to get centered again. And even then, the odds are you fall off. The real trick is avoid making sudden moves in either direction.

OTB
 

Don

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bbking said:
perhaps Americans should look into why they have the highest rate of sexual crimes against children in the world.
Cause in America it is very widely reported and the laws are much stricter because of the religious right. Age of consent is older and in other countries, mis-matched age couples are not as frowned upon. Remember the Joss Stone thing in the US with her boyfriend because she is 17. Also other people are smart enough to go to places where they won't get busted or the laws are less dtrict. When I was in Thailand the number of old European men on the prowl for young Thai BOYS in patpong was mindboggling and sickening. One underground thai group sets up tour groups in Germany for German men looking for young Thai boys. Cambodia is the next target as Thailand makes their laws stricter for these phediphiles.
 
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