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CUPE, TTC who's next?

healer677

Dos XX at Senor Frogs
Jan 13, 2004
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I live across the street from a public school - for God knows how long the caretakers haven't been picking up the trash the kids have been liberally throwing on their front steps.

The problem is - the trash is blowing all up and down the street and on to my front lawn.

Are these CUPE members currently drawing a salary? If so - WHY AREN'T THEY DOING THEIR FARKING JOBS!

Now the TTC is going to strike.....hmmm..... I'm really starting to get sick of these unions.

I guess a good salary, with all the benefits you can think of isn't enough....we might as well give them lifetime job security as well. I've always wondered how well these union workers would do in an open market environment. :mad:
 

chd

New member
Nov 28, 2004
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GTA
Take The Trash Bag It And Drop It In The Office Of The
School
Tell Them Next Time No Bag
I Know It Sounds Crazy
But Some Times Crazy Things Get Quick Actions
 

Truncador

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Mar 21, 2005
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CUPE is about one step removed from a terrorist organization. Big Unions are even worse than organized crime in that they comprise a parallel power that openly defies the authority of the government elected by the People of Canada. The likes of the Mafia, outlaw bike gangs, etc. merely break the laws passed by the government; outfits like CUPE seek to overthrow the authority of government altogether and replace it with their own.
 

chd

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GTA
Gov. Should Have Some Onions And Make It [ttc]
An Essincial Service
Same With Teachers
 

healer677

Dos XX at Senor Frogs
Jan 13, 2004
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No wait!

You guys will find this amusing - my girlfriend actually started to clean up our yard then wandered across the street to try to clean up the sidewalk of the school.

Some burly yahoo actually had the balls to threaten her and told her not to clean it up. Mind you I wasn't there and I doubt this Angelino would have had the nerve to tell me that. But then again I wouldn't be sweeping the sidewalk he should have been cleaning anyway.

If we had real leadership in goverment these guys should have been "Reaganed" a long time ago. I don't think these yoyo should hold a city hostage with their idiotic demands.
 

Keebler Elf

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Aug 31, 2001
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Truncador said:
CUPE is about one step removed from a terrorist organization. Big Unions are even worse than organized crime in that they comprise a parallel power that openly defies the authority of the government elected by the People of Canada. The likes of the Mafia, outlaw bike gangs, etc. merely break the laws passed by the government; outfits like CUPE seek to overthrow the authority of government altogether and replace it with their own.
Bullshit.
 

Keebler Elf

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healer677 said:
I live across the street from a public school - for God knows how long the caretakers haven't been picking up the trash the kids have been liberally throwing on their front steps.
That's a management problem. And it probably has a lot to do with the fact that the Tories hacked n' slashed the education system so badly that there is too much work for too few caretakers. Heck, for all you know the caretakers have been outsourced to some company that's paying below minimum wage to illegal immigrants.
 

Keebler Elf

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rubmeister100 said:
NURSES have more training (2 yers of college), work harder, have to WIPE ASSES and clean up blood and more.
Real nurses have a university degree and make a lot more than $40K.

p.s. your union-hating bias is showing...
 

Keebler Elf

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chd said:
Gov. Should Have Some Onions And Make It [ttc]
An Essincial Service
Same With Teachers
Making things an essential service increases the total labour costs. When something is deemed essential, contract disputes that cannot be resolved go to binding arbitration where unions, on average, gain more than they would through normal collective bargaining (in a nutshell, the arbitrator usually splits the difference rather than one side winning and the other side losing; plus, union members do not suffer lost wages due to being on strike).

But all that is moot b/c the TTC is not an essential service. Neither are school teachers. They both provide a valuable service which, when withdrawn, creates a great deal of inconvenience, but inconvenience is not the same thing as being essential. And there is no right to not be inconvenienced in Canada. There is a right to health care and safety (e.g. the police).
 

healer677

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The ineffectiveness of unions today are glaring. Is anybody in North America violating any child labor laws? Not that I know. Unsafe work places? None that I've heard.

If a company wants to close a plant down and move ops to Mexico what's the union going to do? Dick, nothing, nada, zilch, zero - they can't do squat about it. So who are they protecting but themselves. Padding their own pockets at the expense of the real people doing the real work.

If an organization wants to slam a union in it's place - what's the union going to do? Nothing. For example - WalMart and later on in the year, the NHLPA. They want to talk a big game but if the owners/ organizations really want to teach them a lesson - they will be dealt a hard lesson.

60k, full benefits, medical,dental, JOB SECURITY to drive a bus! to empty waste paper baskets in a public school! I don't think so.

I say contract it all out to real companies - companies that can not only provide the service but remove all this griping and threats of strikes from union employees. Best offer wins. The city will probably save money this way.
 

oldjones

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Aug 18, 2001
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Keebler Elf said:
Real nurses have a university degree and make a lot more than $40K.

p.s. your union-hating bias is showing...
Seconding Keebler, nurses also belong to a union, go on strike now and then and still are paid far less than they're worth.

We would have have a far better health care system I am sure, if the nurses called the shots instead of the doctors. Or the politicians.

Now back to your union-bashing, and do mention how well you negociated your own salary, benefits and conditions of work and safety won't you?
 

oldjones

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healer677 said:
The ineffectiveness of unions today are glaring. Is anybody in North America violating any child labor laws? Not that I know. Unsafe work places? None that I've heard.…edit…
If it wasn't for the unions, I and my fellow workers would have been sent into three hazardous workplaces in the last year and a half. The unions answer their telephones promptly; nine months too late, I got my first communication from the WSIB. I have also seen more than one child worked to the point of exhaustion over a twelve hour plus work day, and it was the unions and not the government that put a stop to it. And all that's in the nice, cushy film businesss, it gets way worse as the wage rates go down: Remember the garbage filled warehouse that collapsed? Wasn't that someone's workplace? The guy crushed in the frozen food place where the falling merchandise took out a wall? He worked there. The Burlington riggers whose scaffolding killed them? How safe was that workplace? Where do you think the rules that might have protected those people came from?

I am so glad you included "not that I know". The reason you "haven't heard" is because those battles were joined and more or less won years ago. But this stuff is like fighting infectious diseases, let down your guard and it'll be right back more deadly than ever. I'm sure you wouldn't go round telling people you've never seen germs, and you don't know of any epidemics so handwashing's useless now, would you.
 
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impala77

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Jan 18, 2003
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oldjones said:
I am so glad you included "not that I know". The reason you "haven't heard" is because those battles were joined and more or less won years ago. But this stuff is like fighting infectious diseases, let down your guard and it'll be right back more deadly than ever. I'm sure you wouldn't go round telling people you've never seen germs, and you don't know of any epidemics so handwashing's useless now, would you.
I couldn't agree more. I'm just getting ready to start a new unionized job in the construction industry and if it wasn't for the fact that we have a very strong union I wouldn't dare approach it. Contractors can easily cut corners to save time and money but never think of the consequences. There aren't enough ministry of labour inspectors to cover the entire province and while legislation works to a point; I feel much better knowing all I have to do if I have concerns is call my union rep.

Not every union is the same and while some of them seem to be more bloated than others to say that all of them have served their purpose is too large a generalization.
 

trek5

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Oct 11, 2004
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rubmeister100 said:
NURSES have more training (2 yers of college), work harder, have to WIPE ASSES and clean up blood and more.

VERY few make much more than $40k.
NURSES who are registered , have a 4 year university degree . you are confused with PSW's and RPN's who do the grunt work with less education .

In May , LCBO is set to strike , not over wage increase but job security (so they say ) .
 

cyrus

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Unions have their usefulness i.e., lobbying for safety & related labor laws against abuse or mismanagement however salary negotiation should not have been one of them.
Salary negotiation should be set by market not though extortion!
Why would NHL players need a union to negotiate multi million dollar salaries!
TTC is another example of union gone bad. Over years, Services have been getting worse, buses aged beyond repairs with no replacement in sight; subway is now breaking down more often than ever and in summer time you sweat wet because the air conditioners inside the cars are either shout down to save fuel or they are broken down, fairs are going up to ceiling to a level that many people need to chip into their food money to cover the cost of transportation to & back from the work.
Yet every year TTC budget has been going up and still they keep howling for more! They don't care if the city has to cut the police budget or raise taxes. Now even with part of the gas tax, they are still predicting deficit in their budget!
Why? To pay for their bus drivers’ exuberating salaries (52 to 67K+ range depending on seniority!)
How could a bus driver salary be at par or more than a university grad with a years of workplace experience is beyond me!
I think it is time to have our Union laws changed back to support what their original purpose were a century ago sooner is better than later for the good of the nation IMO!
 
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strange1

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Mar 14, 2004
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Although the TTC is quick to strike, CUPE has been trying to negotiate for a year and a half without a contract. If you want to talk about responsibility, caretakers should be taking care of building maintenance, NOT cleaning up after kids who are too lazy to put their lunch in a garbage can. If ther's garbage on you lawn, blame the damn kids, not the people trying to keep the building standing.

By the way, the NHLPA is about as relevant to any discussion of unions as Bill Gates is in a talk about the average working man.
 

cyrus

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strange1 said:
...By the way, the NHLPA is about as relevant to any discussion of unions as Bill Gates is in a talk about the average working man.
On the contrary it so clearly highlights the greed and exploitation of our laws that I bet it will be quoted in the future textbooks on the discussion of Unions!
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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cyrus said:
Unions have their usefulness i.e., lobbying for safety & related labor laws against abuse or mismanagement however salary negotiation should not have been one of them.
Salary negotiation should be set by market not though extortion!

…edit…
And what is the market, if not negociation between the buyer and the seller? The employer wants to purchase my labour, she delegates to her VP of Labour Relations, I delegate to my Union President. They negociate—I hope happily for both sides—and come up with a price. If it's unhappy, management may refuse to buy—that'd be a lockout, like the NHL—or labour to sell—that'd be a strike, like the TTC. Either way, no deal, that'd be the market at work. What's your problem with that?
 

someone

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Jun 7, 2003
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oldjones said:
And what is the market, if not negociation between the buyer and the seller? The employer wants to purchase my labour, she delegates to her VP of Labour Relations, I delegate to my Union President. They negociate—I hope happily for both sides—and come up with a price. If it's unhappy, management may refuse to buy—that'd be a lockout, like the NHL—or labour to sell—that'd be a strike, like the TTC. Either way, no deal, that'd be the market at work. What's your problem with that?
I take it that you have no problems with the firm hiring other nonunionized workers if they don't like the price your union president offers. After all, in most markets you are not restricted in terms of who you can buy from. Otherwise, you can't really claim it is a market at work.
 

Keebler Elf

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Sheik said:
Unions have outlived their usefulness and they do not understand that there is no more money to go around. They work in the public sector which means that they know the govt can be forced to mortgage our future to pad their pockets.
Obviously you don't know very much about unions at all. Maybe that's your choice.

Unions have a strong presence in the public sector b/c the workers got sick and tired of being treated like shit by their employer (the gov't). Most public sector workers didn't start out being unionized; they were part of "associations" that by-and-large had a good working relationship with the gov't. As time went on and the gov't started treating said workers worse and worse, workers began to replace their associations with unions (an association being a watered-down version of a union).

If there's no more money to go around, then why do managers get pay raises or COLA or performance bonuses? Seems like that little phrase is code for "no more money for you".

Every so often I'll hear someone without a clue chipping in their two cents that "unions have outlived their usefulness". And it's always the people who haven't got a clue about what it is that unions do. It's always the people that think it's all about the cash and that's all that unions are there for. And it's always the people that are envious of the things unions have negotiated for their members. Yes, that's right, negotiated. That means the gov't agreed to it. And if the gov't doesn't agree with what's on the table, then a strike/lockout occurs. Just like right now with the TTC. That's the way the system is designed to work. And it works well. Collective bargaining results in a negotiated settlement more than 95% of the time. Strikes have been steadily declining for the past 20 years.

Here's a tip: go educate yourself about what unions really do. Talk to a union member who doesn't have a chip on his shoulder or an axe to grind. Talk to a, GASP!, manager who understands the role that unions play (I've been surprised by conversations I've had with senior managers from some of Toronto's largest and most important organizations who agree whole-heartedly that unions have a relevant and valuable role in the workplace; they may not like the hassles of dealing with them all the time, but they recognize and readily admit their legitimacy - something that the generally ignorant joe-blow hasn't got a clue about). Talk to an arbitrator or lawyer who can tell you why unions are a fundamental part of the Canadian labour relations system that has kept out economy relatively free from general strikes and mass violence over the past 50 years.
 
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