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Is the Left Starting to See the Light

onthebottom

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or fear the darkness of obscurity.

Even the VERY liberal Daniel Schorr commenting on NPR referred to Bush's view that a democratic Iraq could have an important effect on that region. From Beirut to Egypt Schorr sees a dramatic change.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4518515

Time to get on board for the big win!

"He may have had it right"

OTB
 
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Peeping Tom

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yeah ... three years too late. Well, I suppose they can say they voted against it before they voted for it, or however that convolution worked. I would like to see the Deanista stance on this - certainly some Dems near the center have seen the light, my take is that they conflict with the head man of the gutter.
 
Y

yychobbyist

Ok, so hang on a second here OTB. The left wants America to fail yet it is beginning to see the light.

Hmm....

I think you may want to limit your use of the term "the left" and more narrowly define what you are speaking of so as to not further confuse us Canadians anymore than we are already confused.
 

onthebottom

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yychobbyist said:
Ok, so hang on a second here OTB. The left wants America to fail yet it is beginning to see the light.

Hmm....

I think you may want to limit your use of the term "the left" and more narrowly define what you are speaking of so as to not further confuse us Canadians anymore than we are already confused.
I think "the left" (an admittedly sloppy term) is at a crossroads. Do they see the light and get with the program (something Schorr came dangerously close to) or do they hope America fails for partisan reasons (see other thread you are referring to).

I think the Dems are screwed either way, smile. How long until Howard Dean is screaming?

OTB
 

Hard Idle

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Question based on a falsehood

There is no such thing as a free or democratic country which has foreign troops under foreign command roaming its country - not even remotely.

Cheer the Lebanon developments at your own risk. There's no guarantee that a good deal of those who want Syria out will also want a much more theocratic state in the new Lebanon..
 

onthebottom

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Hard Idle said:
There is no such thing as a free or democratic country which has foreign troops under foreign command roaming its country - not even remotely.

Cheer the Lebanon developments at your own risk. There's no guarantee that a good deal of those who want Syria out will also want a much more theocratic state in the new Lebanon..
There are foreign troops in South Korea, Japan, Germany, Turkey...... you may want to re-examine your point.

OTB
 

Peeping Tom

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Yup, crossroads indeed. Even the left up here is, in part, having to recognize that they were wrong and Bush was right in his ME conduct. This appeared in today's edition of pravda, I kid not! :eek: Needless to say Dem congressmen and senators are having to adjust to this new reality and their best hope is to quietly take up the program.

Here's where it gets funny: Billary, or another serious candidate. No doubt Dean will be scouring the gutters and asylums of America looking for candidates. Billary, or whoever, will have to repudiate Dean and his squeegy kids from the get go, at the start of the primaries at latest. Dean of course will resent this - the angry little man might insist on having things his way.

Its going to be an amazing campaign - if Billary runs I'm going to quit my job at primaries time, just to enjoy the spectacle.

onthebottom said:
I think "the left" (an admittedly sloppy term) is at a crossroads. Do they see the light and get with the program (something Schorr came dangerously close to) or do they hope America fails for partisan reasons (see other thread you are referring to).

I think the Dems are screwed either way, smile. How long until Howard Dean is screaming?

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
I really get a kick out of Republicans when they seem all happy with the Dems choice of Dean. You Republicans have fallen in love with your sound bits, and Howard Dean is much more than the scream. He is a proven grass roots organiser and fund raiser - key parts of his job at the DNC. In addition it allows the Dems to move to the center right with their candidates while keeping the left happy with control of the DNC. I think the GOP is in for rude shock come 2006 and 2008 with Dean at the helm.
Please oh please oh please let this be another bbking prediction;-)

If Dean stays in the background then I think you're right - I don't think his ego will allow that.

bbking said:
Now as for Bilary - well you can go on all you want but Bilary is a formidable campaign team that you under estimate at your peril. Now having said that, I think the Dems will go with a Governor in 2008. Partially because they seem to rotate from all other political jobs to the Governor's Mansion but mainly because no Dem has every won the POTUS from the Senate directly except for JFK. Now having said that Bilary has been looking like a candidate more and more lately with her most recent victory being to embarass the Whitehouse over a wounded soldier having his pay cut upon his return from Iraq.

...but have your fun, I think there are a number of good Dem Governors out their that can give any GOP a run for their money. You guys forget you won with some of the smallest percentages in history - while I wont take it from you that you won, I wouldn't be resting on my laurals with those numbers if I were you.


bbk
Billary is a bit of a worry, mostly because she'll run from the middle like bubba did and because there are many women in the US that will vote for her because of her gender. I can't wait....

OTB
 

Peeping Tom

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The totality of Dean is the scream. Well, I'll grant him his one good idea: the internet scam he ran on the squeegy kids, getting $200 a pop. That's where Dean will hurt the movement: he will act as if its his money and be gnarly towards anyone not batting to far left field. Right now the only Dean drawback from a Republican perspective is that folk like Billary will seem more moderate and respectable than they really are - because they will have to rebuke Dean and the nutters from the get go.

bbking said:
I really get a kick out of Republicans when they seem all happy with the Dems choice of Dean. You Republicans have fallen in love with your sound bits, and Howard Dean is much more than the scream. He is a proven grass roots organiser and fund raiser - key parts of his job at the DNC. In addition it allows the Dems to move to the center right with their candidates while keeping the left happy with control of the DNC. I think the GOP is in for rude shock come 2006 and 2008 with Dean at the helm.
Nobody imagines Billary to be a slouch - after all, we're talking about the other half of the Sleaze Team here. My call is that there exists something, something uncovered during Bubba's trial, that wasn't used due to Bubba's Presidential immunity and was shelved for the very possibility of a Billary campaign. As for Dem governors, I'm not really in the loop on this (no way I'm going to sub New Republic).

Nobody is going to rest on their laurels. The margin was slim, perhaps even razor thin. But don't forget, a campaign was fought against an adversary that had declared total war; and fought to the death, an adversary that still controlled the remaining vestiges of the cultural clergy; aided and abetted by the vast resources of that theocracy, an adversary out to do anything, ethical or not, to ensure victory. And defeating such an adversary was no small feat.

Now as for Bilary - well you can go on all you want but Bilary is a formidable campaign team that you under estimate at your peril. Now having said that, I think the Dems will go with a Governor in 2008.

...but have your fun, I think there are a number of good Dem Governors out their that can give any GOP a run for their money. You guys forget you won with some of the smallest percentages in history - while I wont take it from you that you won, I wouldn't be resting on my laurals with those numbers if I were you.
 

onthebottom

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Peeping Tom said:
The totality of Dean is the scream. Well, I'll grant him his one good idea: the internet scam he ran on the squeegy kids, getting $200 a pop. That's where Dean will hurt the movement: he will act as if its his money and be gnarly towards anyone not batting to far left field. Right now the only Dean drawback from a Republican perspective is that folk like Billary will seem more moderate and respectable than they really are - because they will have to rebuke Dean and the nutters from the get go.
The problem with the view that, the head of the DNC is a backroom money bag job (which it is) so Dean's ability to self destruct won't matter, is that everyone knows Dean got the job, he'll be front and center, right where the Republicans want him :D

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
Generally incumbent POTUS win by a much bigger margin especially when thaey are wartime POTUS. As for the rest of this nonsense, I only need to point out that the Bishop's of Kerry's faith called for his removal from the church. I really don't get the Republican ability to make a small victory bigger by character assination. This point alone will most likely defeat the republicans in 2008.


bbk
There it is again, another bold prediction (pun mine). So bbk, tell us what you would define as "defeat" of the Republicans so we can all agree when you're wrong :D

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
I thought you said that would be the end of the smart ass remarks. I see the GOP keeps up it's long standing ability to be like a dog with a bone. Hell - Delay pulled it the other day, when a CBS reporter asked a very valid question about Delay's legal troubles - his response was to tell the reporter that "We all know CBS makes up the news" ...talk about an overstatement that Republicans are famous for. It amazes me how Republicans can govern when they are so absorbed with BS.

Yeah, but then you went back to making predictions, don't do it if you're not willing to live with it. The rest of this paragraph was just bla bla bla

bbking said:
As for Dean and ego - another Repulican/Fox myth. Dean is a hard charging, aggresive campaigner and an expert in grass roots politics, something the Dems missed out on badly in Ohio and Dean willmake a diffrence in this area.
Like Iowa? There is a great story about the Dean campaign talking up the busloads of volunteers traveling to Iowa to help, when the press looked the buses were empty. He's from the wrong wing of the wrong party to win national elections - over stated but directionally correct.

bbking said:
As for predicting Dem gains in 2006 - hardly much of a prediction when history on the Dems side, while I don't see control going back to the Dems until their political leadership moves to the centre/right which will most likely happen after the 2006 elections.
bbk
OK, so quantify that "hardly much of a prediction" that will define Republican defeat. Now how is the leadership going to move right when they just elected Dean "from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party" to lead?

In some ways it was sad to see Democrats give up on the candidate they loved (Dean) to settle for Kerry so he could beat Bush. If they had run Dean and he'd lost at least they would have run their strongest candidate. It seems to indicate that even the Democrats know they are out of touch with the country.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
any net loss of seats in the House and Senate by the GOP will be viewed as a loss by the media but your right it's not much of a prediction.

As for making predictions - well some are some are bad, at least I stick my neck when offering an opinion.


bbk
Hey, I applaud the courage of taking a stand but also feel it's fair to hold you to your predictions (although my glee over "Kerry by 10" had less to do with your prediction than my relief).

Every sitting POTUS (save the current one) has lost seats in a mid term election so you are correct, not much of a prediction. Now if the D's could unseat a powerful Republican (like the R's did with Daschle) or take one of the houses, that is how I would define victory, otherwise its just business as usual.

BTW, the new guy has got to go, calling Greenspan a political hack is a bit much.

OTB
 

Peeping Tom

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I don't see that the Democrats (meaning the DNC) gave up on Dean. He crashed and burned badly in the primaries. What is remarkable about that wasn't that Dean was a very poor choice, rather it was the field he swam in. Those voting in the primaries certainly were out of touch with reality, choosing America's most left leaning liberal. What is it about Dean that prompted your "strongest candidate" remark? I didn't see it, rather I saw someone perhaps most fit for Candian politics, perhaps as NDP leader - a pathetic, angry little man well versed in the machinations of the gutter - no more, no less.

onthebottom said:
In some ways it was sad to see Democrats give up on the candidate they loved (Dean) to settle for Kerry so he could beat Bush. If they had run Dean and he'd lost at least they would have run their strongest candidate. It seems to indicate that even the Democrats know they are out of touch with the country.

OTB
 

Peeping Tom

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That is the best possible place for Dean. Instead of making a fool of himself in the short lived primary season, he will be available on a daily basis. I'm confident many a Republican reporter will troll him for sound bytes ...

onthebottom said:
he'll be front and center, right where the Republicans want him :D
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
You know what amazes me about Republicans is that they can go on and on about one incident and fail to say anything about the Illinois Senate campaign and that darling of the extreme right Alan Keyes, a candidate that was hand picked by no one less than the Speaker of the House. After that Senate campaign by Keyes I wouldn't admit to being Republican in Illinios.


bbk
bbk,

Keyes was a late entrant to the race, hand picked may have been a bit misleading, the only one willing to run would be a better description.

OTB
 

Peeping Tom

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What is your point about Keyes? A quick glance at his site indicates he's a pretty decent guy ... maybe that's the point. More to the point, slandering someone just doesn't serve to distract from the reality: mainly Dean, being himself and just where Republicans want him. Keyes on the other hand, with whatever it is you dislike about him, isn't running the GOP or even holding a post with public profile.

As an aside, I can't figure why you support Dean - this is inconsistent with whatever I gather from reading and replying to your posts. Dean - the Ed Broadbent of the DNC.
 

Asterix

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Peeping Tom said:
What is your point about Keyes? A quick glance at his site indicates he's a pretty decent guy ...
Well, let's see what Alan has to say in his own words, shall we? While most of it is pretty standard right wing fodder, he does have some views that are peculiarly his own. Besides not seeming to like much about anybody, Alan takes particular aim at gays, stating that homosexuality leads to nazism, communism and totalitarianism, and that hate crime laws simply further the gay agenda. He claims that anti-semitism and black's conflicts with Jews is the result of a Jewish backed welfare state. He rightly sees that the federal government should butt out of religious issues, but then follows that up by saying if states and communities impose a particular religious bias it's all hunky dory, and actually what the founding fathers had in mind. The republicans put him up there to be sacrificed, no doubt hoping he'll never come back. Now, Tom, I know you won't like this link, but the stuff you find at Fox News is so limiting. All the quotes here were from national publications, the debates, and Alan's own writings.

http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=16725
 

Peeping Tom

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So, in other words its the standard leftist retort? Cmon guys, at minimum make an attack on a significant figure. Beating a nobody will get you ... nowhere - but maybe that's the genius of your near future campaign. As I said, Howard Dean, the man in the spotlight.
 

Asterix

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Peeping Tom said:
So, in other words its the standard leftist retort? Cmon guys, at minimum make an attack on a significant figure. Beating a nobody will get you ... nowhere - but maybe that's the genius of your near future campaign. As I said, Howard Dean, the man in the spotlight.
Sorry. I was simply answering your question about Keyes. Whatever decency he has left I'll let you decide for yourself.

As far as Dean, I think he is a good choice for DNC chairman. He'll be able to bring his real talents for organization and fund raising to bear. I don't think you realize how little press a chairman for either party creates. It is a backroom job and rarely in the spotlight.
 
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