Toronto Escorts

Military

Hockey_MLnut

Go Ahead Make My Day
Aug 2, 2004
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Canada should be spending way more money on our armed forces. We basically have no navy to speak of and of course our air force is way too old. We barely have enough ground troops to do the job in afganistan. they are gone for 6 months then home for 2-3 and then gone again its just not fair to them. The new Liberal budget will be giving them more money but it is just not enough for a country our size.

Just wanted to know everyones opinion on this.
 

someone

Active member
Jun 7, 2003
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Earth
Hockey_MLnut said:
Canada should be spending way more money on our armed forces. We basically have no navy to speak of and of course our air force is way too old. We barely have enough ground troops to do the job in afganistan. they are gone for 6 months then home for 2-3 and then gone again its just not fair to them. The new Liberal budget will be giving them more money but it is just not enough for a country our size.

Just wanted to know everyones opinion on this.
As I have posted many times on this board, I agree. I just can't think of anything to add that has not been said many times on this board.
 

slowpoke

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Oct 22, 2004
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I also agree. Having said that, can anyone comment on how much of a difference the $12.8 B will make? I understand it is over a long period with most of the $$ arriving very late in the game but, like most Maple Leaf fans, I remain hopeful. Any thoughts on how much hardware and manpower we can expect?
 

stang

Banned
Oct 24, 2002
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S ontario
Don't be too hard on them.
Actually we easily have a better navy than about 85% of the world.
15-16 major surface combattants.
4 modern subs. (or soon to be when they sort them out)
12 coastal warfare craft.
The only foreign force trusted and integrated into US carrier battlegroups so far.
Proven worldwide deployability still.

Cross your fingers, if the recent interest and potential committment pans out, it should be able to avoid any further diminishment in capabilities.
 

Hard Idle

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Jan 15, 2005
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Misplaced priority

For what? The only people who violate and plunder our waters are our supposed alies ( USA, France, Spain, dont know about Norway & Portugal these days). We hardly ever do anything about it so why bother spending.

Canada already has the air & sea capability to retaliate for a hypothetical act of state terrorism. But bulking up the military to join the US, England and Australia in neocolonial bullying is a good way to bring that sort of thing about. I'd rather that potential adversaries continue to pay as little attention to Canada as our supposed friends do.

Before contemplating a military investment, we should first apply money to where it will actually make a difference to us, like a huge increase in caseworkes and enforcment officers slow the revolving door of depoetees and curb smuggling.
 

sizematters

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Jan 13, 2004
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such a waste of money.
Canada has a huge geographical area, population less than California, we are not a world power so forget it.
btw, any of you hawks miss the rent payment this month or had to drop by the food bank to feed your kids? I thought not. Please remember that 1 in 5 Canadian families lives below the poverty line.
 

n_v

Banned
Aug 26, 2001
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sizematters said:
such a waste of money.
Canada has a huge geographical area, population less than California, we are not a world power so forget it.
btw, any of you hawks miss the rent payment this month or had to drop by the food bank to feed your kids? I thought not. Please remember that 1 in 5 Canadian families lives below the poverty line.
:rolleyes:. Thanks for the guilt trip.
 

slowpoke

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Oct 22, 2004
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sizematters said:
such a waste of money.
Canada has a huge geographical area, population less than California, we are not a world power so forget it.
btw, any of you hawks miss the rent payment this month or had to drop by the food bank to feed your kids? I thought not. Please remember that 1 in 5 Canadian families lives below the poverty line.
I agree with almost everything you've said. We can't afford an all purpose military. We do need to protect our own sovereignty, though. This means exercising some kind of control over the high Arctic and doing a better job of policing our coastal waters against overfishing, smuggling, illegal immigration etc. We're terribly lax in many of these areas and it will bite us on the ass someday if we don't get it sorted.

Also I think we should take more initiative in places like Sudan / Darfur where those below the poverty line are facing certain death, not just a food bank. This means having a modest peacekeeping / disaster relief capability. These are not hawkish goals. More like compassionate dreams. The hawks on this board get excited about cluster bombing Iraqis. I dream about having just enough juice to make a difference in high stakes places like Rwanda or Yugoslavia. We used to be able to go to these places and do our share alongside the other UN member forces. But not anymore.
 

islandboy

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Nov 14, 2004
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Below the poverty line BUT a comparitively high proverty line.

There is an aspect to military strengh that is being missed. It brings more voice in the international stage. Taking into account the need to ensure your cooperation brings extra trade and money. In part, it is an investment - not only in your pocket but also in your self image (and other's image) about your really having something real to say and contribute. Knowing that you will follow through on what you beleive also brings respect and buisness.

An example of narrow thinkingin the name of seeing the board picture of immediate social needs and convenience.
 

northerner

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Mar 31, 2002
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I have nothing against spending more money on the military, but would all the people complaining about us not spending enough be willing to pay higher taxes to make it happen?
 

Hockey_MLnut

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Aug 2, 2004
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I wouldnt mind paying higher taxes for more of a military and more on welfare (remember we pay for them not to work) thats goin to get people mad at me but its true. Yeah the people that are poor in Canada have to go to Good Will and the food bank. But they do get food and clothes. We dont have 1 out of ever 5 families on the street so they must be making enough to stay in a house/apartment etc. Yeah our country may have a small population but we are the 2nd biggest country and we need to have the means to defend it from another country if an attack happens. Oh and by the way our country had a pretty small population right after WWII but we had the 4th largest army in the world and we didnt bully anyone. And if the families that are poor if their main provider got a job in the army thats a pretty nice pay for the year.
 

sizematters

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Jan 13, 2004
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slowpoke said:
Also I think we should take more initiative in places like Sudan / Darfur where those below the poverty line are facing certain death, not just a food bank. This means having a modest peacekeeping / disaster relief capability. These are not hawkish goals. More like compassionate dreams. The hawks on this board get excited about cluster bombing Iraqis. I dream about having just enough juice to make a difference in high stakes places like Rwanda or Yugoslavia. We used to be able to go to these places and do our share alongside the other UN member forces. But not anymore.
I agree...I have the same dream.
cheers,
 

xarir

Retired TERB Ass Slapper
Aug 20, 2001
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In military terms Canada is a middle power. We shouldn't have delusions of grandeur - unless a drawn-out world war breaks out again, Canada will never have a military like it did in the first half of the 20th Century because it has no need for one. It's odd to think of it now, but back then we had a pretty serious military. We had an industry that manufactured Halifax & Lancaster bombers that were flown to Europe for immediate use. We had a pretty serious training infrastructure in place. Heck, we even had aircraft carriers that we sold to the US.

But after WWII, Canada made a concious decision to step back from being a military power and embark on a quest to be recognized for its diplomatic power instead. Today, as a middle power we have a hard-earned reputation for being a solid moderate. Canada can be counted on to be deployed to the hot spots and help to seek a peace. It doesn't always work, but someone has to try; why shouldn't it be us?

To that extent I support increased military funding. We need more troops and we need to equip those troops with the hardware and logistical support to keep them safe in areas that are inherently dangerous. $12.8 billion over the next 5 or so years is a great start, but I sure hope there's going to be more. As a one-time outlay that's not bad - we should be able to buy some new equipment. But buying stuff is easy. Keeping it in working order is the hard part. Look at the subs - as a capital expenditure they were relatively cheap. But fixing them up and maintaining them has already proven to be difficult and expensive.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
26,135
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Room 112
sizematters said:
such a waste of money.
Canada has a huge geographical area, population less than California, we are not a world power so forget it.
btw, any of you hawks miss the rent payment this month or had to drop by the food bank to feed your kids? I thought not. Please remember that 1 in 5 Canadian families lives below the poverty line.
Problem solved. Increased military spending = more military positions = jobs for those who are unemployed/undereducated and living below the poverty line.
 

Hard Idle

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Jan 15, 2005
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Social cleansing

K Douglas said:
Problem solved. Increased military spending = more military positions = jobs for those who are unemployed/undereducated and living below the poverty line.
What you just described sounds more like North Korea, not a country somebody would actually want to be a part of.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
26,135
6,344
113
Room 112
In military terms Canada is hardly a middle power. We'd get our asses kicked by Surinam for crissakes! I was reading last week that Canada spends approx 1.6% of its GDP on defence. That is woeful. North Korea is highest at about 10%, Israel 9.5%, China and Russia in the 7-8% range, US at 6.5% and so on. Our military has been on life support for 15 years its high time we started funding it properly. Who knows, maybe if we had a military that was respected around the globe the world community would have listened to Gen Dallaire about Rwanda and prevented some of the 800,000 deaths. Finally Martin and the liberals got something right.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
26,135
6,344
113
Room 112
Hard Idle said:
What you just described sounds more like North Korea, not a country somebody would actually want to be a part of.
Adding a few thousand military positions hardly sounds like North Korean defence policy. Get a grip.
 

Hard Idle

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K Douglas said:
Adding a few thousand military positions hardly sounds like North Korean defence policy. Get a grip.
I was thinking of the idea (serious or not) of straving people into military service, or at least using the military as a substitute for a higher employment economic model.

The remark you may have made in jest is not a laughing matter. I am sure the sight of hundreds of people lining up to drive a truck in Iraq at the risk of orphaning their children is giving all sorts of ideas to people of certain political persuasions in the US. Combined with that story about Germany cutting benefits to the woman who didn't take a brothel job, and it makes for a scary future.

I don't trust our Bush (or our PM) with the temptation to keep exporting jobs and yanking benefits in order to impoverish people into serving as soldiers or "contractors" whose blood could fuel military crusades.

If a country pimped me like that and I found myself in danger, I'd rather risk my life shooting my commanding officer out of spite instead of being a good slave.
 

Hockey_MLnut

Go Ahead Make My Day
Aug 2, 2004
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Canada after the Korean War decided to do nothing because we had invented the peace Keepers. alot of good they did in Rwanda.
 
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