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Cardinal Fang

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Feb 14, 2002
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Any news on when you'll stop posting 1,345,567 threads per day?

:D

As to the topic at hand, from The National Post:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20050225/ZUNDEL25/TPNational/Canada

"Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel can be deported immediately as a danger to Canadian security, a Federal Court of Canada judge has ruled.

In a searing 64-page ruling yesterday, Mr. Justice Pierre Blais labelled Mr. Zundel a racist hypocrite who has nurtured a pacifist image to conceal his support of right-wing extremism and his global propagation of anti-Semitic material. "Mr. Zundel seems to thrive in this troubled sea, surrounded by ambiguity and hypocrisy," the judge said.

"Mr. Zundel's activities are not only a threat to Canada's national security, but also a threat to the international community of nations."

No appeal is possible under the controversial national security certificate procedure, meaning Mr. Zundel could be on a plane to his native Germany at any time."
 

onthebottom

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Jan 10, 2002
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What was he arrested for? Other than having extremist and dangerous views what is the legal basis for deporting him. Not supporting the message just trying to understand the issue.

OTB
 

slowpoke

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Oct 22, 2004
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I think Zundel's Holocaust denial publications and public statements got him busted for inciting hatred. I can't recall the exact charge but it was some kind of hate crime.

"..Zundel was in and out of courtrooms in Canada in the early 1980s over his persistent publication of material depicting the Holocaust as a myth propagated to vilify Germans and justify massive war reparations.

A resident of Canada for 42 years, Zundel was jailed last year upon his return to Canada after overstaying his visa in the U.S. In Germany, he faces charges of suspicion of incitement to hatred.

The Canadian Security Intelligence Service alleges Zundel has advised and encouraged some 25 people who advocate violence, including an American writer whose book was found among the possessions of convicted Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.

Last month, the Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear his challenge of the constitutional validity of the security certificate review process under which he was declared inadmissible to Canada..."

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1101333207257_43?s_name=&no_ads=
 

strange1

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Mar 14, 2004
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Not a citizen, promoting hate, enough of a reason for me.

From 680 news.com, "He will be picked up immediately and then arrested," a German official who requested anonymity said Friday."
 

Coach

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While I do not agreee with his thoughts at all, should he be arrested? Isn't the freedom to believe something we support in this country. Should we ship all "racist asses" out of the country? Do we then arrest everyone with extremist or "objectionable opinions".
WE know the Holacost took place and was arguably one of the worst events to happen in the history of man, no argument. But is it illegal for him, or for anyone to believe it didn't take place? So what if he preaches this? Of course he is wrong, but what exactly is his crime? :confused:
If we arrest those who promote and teach falsehoods then, taken to the extreme, shouldn't we arrest all those who teach that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exist? I know this sound silly, but think about it.
 

slowpoke

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Coach said:
While I do not agreee with his thoughts at all, should he be arrested? Isn't the freedom to believe something we support in this country. Should we ship all "racist asses" out of the country? Do we then arrest everyone with extremist or "objectionable opinions".
WE know the Holacost took place and was arguably one of the worst events to happen in the history of man, no argument. But is it illegal for him, or for anyone to believe it didn't take place? So what if he preaches this? Of course he is wrong, but what exactly is his crime? :confused:
If we arrest those who promote and teach falsehoods then, taken to the extreme, shouldn't we arrest all those who teach that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exist? I know this sound silly, but think about it.
I agree that you should be free to believe what you like. I think he crossed the line because certain of his actions were deemed to be counselling others and inciting violence. Just like crying "FIRE" in a crowded room gets you into trouble because your actions caused forseeable harm.
 

Peeping Tom

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Just give the left a little more time, they are working fervently ...

Coach said:
If we arrest those who promote and teach falsehoods then, taken to the extreme, shouldn't we arrest all those who teach that Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny exist? I know this sound silly, but think about it.
 

xarir

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Aug 20, 2001
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In an attempt to form my own, reasoned opinion I went surfing for some of Ernst Zundel's writings. I found a few excerpts here:

http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp?xpicked=2&item=zundel


Two quotes from Mr. Zundel:

"Wherever we look, we White people find ourselves besieged by peoples of other races who compete aggressively against us for jobs, food, housing, education and above all -- power! The Jews are particularly adept at seizing or insinuating themselves into strategic positions in our society where they wield power far beyond the extent of their numbers....Through us, the White majority of Europe and America, the Jewish minority have obtained their advantages, including their Israel, their Federal Reserve, their World Bank and their International Monetary Fund. In exchange for these advantages, the Jews give us -- their White hosts -- wars, depressions, inflation, unemployment, energy shortages, higher and higher taxes and air piracy. Like sheep, they expect us to go down the road with them -- all the way to the kosher slaughterhouse. We White people of America have done nothing so far which would frustrate the Jews' expectations or their ambitions of becoming the world's slavemasters.


"I had predicted that your own ethnic group and some of your leading citizens would next be the targets of defamation, vilification and distortion and that some of you might be transported to the Soviet Union and/or Israel for torture, trial and execution because the Zionists are striving to equate anti-Communism with Fascism in the public mind. Despite the hateful depiction of Poles and Ukrainians in the Holocaust hate film, you did not heed my warning. And now, the Zionist hate campaign is directed at you! ....


This type of view has no place in society and definitely should not be tolerated in Canada. There is indeed a fine line in determining what is an acceptable view in Canada and what is not, but in this case it seems clear that Zundel's perspective is not welcome. Had he ceased publishing his views and stopped trying to promote them to others, I actually wouldn't have a problem with him. People can think what they want but they they shouldn't try to force their views on others if they don't contribute to a moderate, well-balanced society. Trying to single out a race and cast them in a bad light is just plain wrong.
 
Y

yychobbyist

Peeping Tom said:
Just give the left a little more time, they are working fervently ...
It seems to me that these days "politically correct" is anything in line with the views of the right. Moreover, if anyone's being blacklisted or in danger of being muzzled in the U.S. these days it's because they have the audacity to call into question the dominant political philosophy of the Bush regime and the religious right.
 
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yychobbyist said:
It seems to me that these days "politically correct" is anything in line with the views of the right. Moreover, if anyone's being blacklisted or in danger of being muzzled in the U.S. these days it's because they have the audacity to call into question the dominant political philosophy of the Bush regime and the religious right.
Correct, sir.

Case in point - when the Republican governor of Colorado was making a case for firing William Chruchill, he claimed that Churchill was supposedly spouting "hate speech"...

I will say this, though - I find the deportation of Zundel to be fishy in the extreme. That he promoted "hate speech" is beyond question - but the use of security certificates to detain him and using "national security" as a reason to deport him - this crosses a line between legitimately controlling dangerous speech (and we should always construe "dangerous speech" very, very narrowly) and using the powers of state to steamroll over the rights of an individual - however retarded that individual may be.
 

slowpoke

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Drunken Master said:
Correct, sir.

Case in point - when the Republican governor of Colorado was making a case for firing William Chruchill, he claimed that Churchill was supposedly spouting "hate speech"...

I will say this, though - I find the deportation of Zundel to be fishy in the extreme. That he promoted "hate speech" is beyond question - but the use of security certificates to detain him and using "national security" as a reason to deport him - this crosses a line between legitimately controlling dangerous speech (and we should always construe "dangerous speech" very, very narrowly) and using the powers of state to steamroll over the rights of an individual - however retarded that individual may be.
I can't disagree with what you've said but it is noteworthy that Zundel was allowed to remain in Canada for over 40 years and they tried every means at their disposal to convict him fair and square (for distributing hate literature via his web site). But the charges were overturned on technicalities and the law was eventually ruled unconstitutional. Finally he moved to the US, vowing never to set foot in Canada again. But the US sent him back to us after a few years because he violated the terms of his residency there. So he's wanted for hate violations in Germany, unfit to remain in the US and now Canada finally gets to use immigration measures rather than to continue expensively prosecuting him.

He'd never gained Canadian citizenship so, when he returned from the US, he was just one of a great many refugees. After all the $$$ we've spent trying to get rid of this stain on humanity, do you really think we should have let him back in just so we could go back to trying him in court? I'm glad we finally found a way to get rid of him and I hope we'd do the same to any other refugee with such a bogus reason to be fleeing his homeland.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/
 

strange1

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slowpoke said:
... So he's wanted for hate violations in Germany, unfit to remain in the US and now Canada finally gets to use immigration measures rather than to continue expensively prosecuting him.

He'd never gained Canadian citizenship so, when he returned from the US, he was just one of a great many refugees. After all the $$$ we've spent trying to get rid of this stain on humanity, do you really think we should have let him back in just so we could go back to trying him in court? I'm glad we finally found a way to get rid of him and I hope we'd do the same to any other refugee with such a bogus reason to be fleeing his homeland.
And Germany's hate laws are a lot stronger than ours.
 

Keebler Elf

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The only crime was how long it took us to deport his sorry ass. Canada is a country for everyone. If you're a bigot and a racist, stay the fuck home. We don't want you.
 
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