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Auschwitz - 60th anniversary.

Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/01/24/un-session-050124.html

:(

A couple of things - First, Tadesuz Borowski's This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentleman, is one of the most uncompromising and harrowing accounts of the camps ever written. I read it years ago, and it remains seared on my mind.

Second, why was the UN GA only partially full?

Third, for those of you who watched the coverage on CBC, was anybody else bothered by the fact that the speaker from Israel used the opportunity to condemn the UN for "villifying" Israel? Was this the right venue for scoring such political points?
 
Y

yychobbyist

The GA was probably only partially full because the Holocaust, as terrible as it was, didn't exactly have a universal effect on every nation in the world. Secondly, you may have answered your own question by referring to what the Israeli representative said - lots of countries have no time for Israel and many may have seen these unfortunate comments coming.
 

someone

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Mcluhan

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The Horror, the horror..

Drunken Master said:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/01/24/un-session-050124.html

:(

A couple of things - First, Tadesuz Borowski's This Way for the Gas, Ladies and Gentleman, is one of the most uncompromising and harrowing accounts of the camps ever written. I read it years ago, and it remains seared on my mind.
I haven't read the book, however I found this excerpt on the web. Your description of the book led me to take 2 minutes and look for it..after reading these few pages, I understand what you meant by uncompromising and searing. My God man..you did well to even try to put it into words. This writer makes Schindler's List look like a walk in the park on summer's day..

http://dieoff.org/page226.htm

As for the improper venue... well, how do you measure this type of man's inhumanity...and then judge on the outcome. I can't.
 

langeweile

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Sep 21, 2004
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We haven't learned yet...

On my way home I was listening to the proceedings from Auschwitz, and some of the "talking Heads" spill afterwards.
"We have to make sure we never forget what happened" "We have fight the evils wherever they are" and so and so on.

While I don't disagree with any of the statements I have to wonder if we really have learned our lessons.
We watched Rwanda happen and we are debatting the Sudan endlessly..to what avail?
Nothing.People are still being slaugtered by the thousands and we do nothing.

Empty speeches at candlelights...is that the best we can do? Is that all we should do?
 
Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
langeweile said:
On my way home I was listening to the proceedings from Auschwitz, and some of the "talking Heads" spill afterwards.
"We have to make sure we never forget what happened" "We have fight the evils wherever they are" and so and so on.

While I don't disagree with any of the statements I have to wonder if we really have learned our lessons.
We watched Rwanda happen and we are debatting the Sudan endlessly..to what avail?
Nothing.People are still being slaugtered by the thousands and we do nothing.

Empty speeches at candlelights...is that the best we can do? Is that all we should do?
Good points.
 

cyrus

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Jun 29, 2003
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Drunken Master said:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/01/24/un-session-050124.html

:(

.....Third, for those of you who watched the coverage on CBC, was anybody else bothered by the fact that the speaker from Israel used the opportunity to condemn the UN for "villifying" Israel? Was this the right venue for scoring such political points?
Are you surprised?!
If it wasn’t for the shame of such a horrific stain on all mankind they won’t have the venue to continue to beat up on another group of people and still get away with it in UN for so long !
 
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n_v

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Aug 26, 2001
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cyrus said:
Are you surprised?!
If it wasn’t for the shame of such a horrific stain on all mankind they won’t have the venue to continue to beat up on another group of people and still get away with it in UN for so long !
Exactly!
 

K Douglas

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Jan 5, 2005
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Bitterness

While their comments were unfortunate, the Israeli leadership(and their US supporters) are blamed for all the woes in the affairs of the Middle East. The UN GA is infatuated with condemning Israel at the same time doing nothing to denounce the doctrine of terrorism, its perpetrators, its apologists and the ethnic hatred of Jews being taught in Arabic schools and mosques. The pervasive rise of anti Semitism in Europe and within the UN itself makes Israelis and Jewish people very bitter. They have suffered tremendously over the years, yet all we hear is their brutal oppression of Palestinians. I am certainly not condoning the actions of the Israeli government and the UN is right to call them out (especially with respect to the illegal settlements) but man where is the balance??

The fact that only one Arab representative (Jordan) bothered to speak up at the UN special assembly (and they spent most of their speech criticising Israel), is utterly shameful.

BTW, I am not Jewish, I was baptised Anglican but am hardly religious.
 

onthebottom

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Jan 10, 2002
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The stain of the holocaust is inaction - the inability, unwillingness, uncaring or treachery of standing idly by why many die. Sudan, Rwanda....... this has been happening for a long time before and since the holocaust. The cowardice of "it's none of my business" is no excuse - this is why I'm so hard on Canada and the EU for being unwilling to field a respectable military, our politicians for being too short sighted to get involved and the UN for being idiots.

Those who don't learn from history are damned to repeat it - and we're doing that now.

OTB
 

onthebottom

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bbking said:
What? - have a military that can slaughter people by the 100s of thousands. This is what you're arguing for. Do I really have to remind you about Germany's military spending pre-1939 and the fact that an arm of that miltary commited the holocaust. I would think by your discust concerning the holocaust you would on the side of banning the military. You are right, those who don't learn the RIGHT lesson from history are damned to repeat it.



bbk
bbking,

You are old enough to know better than this. The disarmament of the 1920s and 30s let WWII happen, the cold war arming kept the peace.

What did that force of arms do in Bosnia?

OTB
 

cyrus

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K Douglas said:
……. The UN GA is infatuated with condemning Israel at the same time doing nothing to denounce the doctrine of terrorism, its perpetrators, its apologists and the ethnic hatred of Jews being taught in Arabic schools and mosques……
UN General Assembly membership is made of all the world’s nations and its condemnation of Israel is a democratic expression and representative of the majority of the world opinion about Israel’s illegal behavior in the occupied territories unlike the Security Council where US runs the show, when it comes to Israel without any ramification!
As for the "terrorism” every nation has condemn it, over and over, not only because it is a brutal act against the civilians, but also it is very destructive to ones struggle in a political arena. Sadly those, who commit to it, do so due to the anguish and total hopelessness of their situation.
Maybe if we start to pause for a moment and ask questions, once in a while we may be able to actually deal with it in a more constructive ways than only react to symptoms all the time!

As for the so called "hatred of Jews", come on, does the whole world hate Jews or only those who return the favor?!
How long do you think they could go on and call everyone else who opposes their unlawful actions, anti-Semitic?
The memory of Holocaust belongs to the mankind thus it should be appalling to every Jew that the Jewish state exploits it as a trump card every time it wants to push its Zionist agenda further at the expense of others!
 
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cyrus

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bbking said:
This is very typical of the junk that comes out of the UN. I have never known Israel to bring up the holocaust for any treaty thay have signed. I can't recall any time the Israel has gone to the US or France for weapons saying "Remember the holocaust" so what agenda are talking about in the first place. The Jews around the world have every right to hold remberance and prayers for those that lost their lives. They have every right to challenge those people who claim the holocaust never happen or wish it was kept on the qt. Nah the shame is people like you who somehow wish to want to hide in the shadows and pretend the holocaust never happened and gawd help anyone dare remind you of the 6 million lives lost just because of a religion they happen to believe in.


bbk

Why are you mixing things up? Quoting unrelated topics?
Get a hold of yourself! No one is disputing holocaust or the right to remembrance and prayers!
As for getting back to the main topic, here a quote!

"Mr Sharon, in a speech to the parliament, the Knesset, on Wednesday to mark the anniversary, said Israel "has learned the lesson of Auschwitz".
"Mr Sharon criticised as anti-Semites those who sought to compare Israel's "legitimate self-defence against the Palestinian terrorists" with the Nazis' treatment of the Jews"
BBC's James Reynolds
 

islandboy

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The lesson of the camps, is the lesson of man and perhaps human nature. When and if man changes the need to remember these failures will lessen. But it is possible if we ever put these failues lessens behind us we are doomed to repeat them. So far that seems to be the case. It is a major reason to err on the side of caution. It is a reason to secure what you have. But it is also a reason to never stop holding out the hand of friendship in hopes of better days for all.

God bless all who died. May the horrors you suffered forever be seared in the heats and souls of all who follow. I will always try to be better and listen harder because of you.
 

cyrus

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islandboy said:
....God bless all who died. May the horrors you suffered forever be seared in the heats and souls of all who follow. I will always try to be better and listen harder because of you.
Amen
 

cyrus

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"Mr Sharon criticised as anti-Semites those who sought to compare Israel's "legitimate self-defence against the "Mr Sharon criticised as anti-Semites those who sought to compare Israel's "legitimate self-defence against the Palestinian terrorists" with the Nazis' treatment of the Jews"
No Mr. Sharon as it is obvious above calls the act of occupation, illegal settlements, killing of children in the school yard of refugee camps "legitimate self-defense against the Palestinian terrorists" while everyone who object to these heavy handed and unlawful actions anti-Semitic.
You, yourself in a reply to my earlier post labeled me as such for the same reason!
 
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Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
onthebottom said:
bbking,

You are old enough to know better than this. The disarmament of the 1920s and 30s let WWII happen, the cold war arming kept the peace.

What did that force of arms do in Bosnia?

OTB
1) Hitler used the failure of the powers to disarm after WWI as an excuse to rearm Germany. Dozens of agreements supposed to curb the military capacity of the great powers were ignored. Not to say that Hitler wouldn't have rearmed Germany regardless - but the idea that "disarmament" caused WWII has no basis in fact.

2) The "peace" among the wealthier nations was paid for at the cost of war in poorer nations armed by Cold War factions.

3) Whose "force of arms" in Bosnia? Was there an invasion I didn't hear about?
 

Asterix

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bbking said:
If you bothered to try to understand the Zionist point of view which was Jews did not stand up and fight while Hitler and the SS rounded them up - that they went to the slaughter like sheep. The Jews of pre-war Europe chose to ignore anti-semitism directed at them when the roundup happened they went obedently with the authorities. Sharon is saying nothing new, that they will be very aggressive against discrimination and who can blame them. If there is a comparison it is this "Not Again" attitude. While I find fault on both sides of the Palestinian issue, how can you not understand why Israel feels that the terrorists are anti-semites when the militants of Palistinian want the destruction of the State of Israel and everyone in it. Gee with the kind of attitude the Palistians show why are you surprised at this comment.

I tell ya, the more read what people post I really get the feeling that the meaning of the holocaust is lost to people. This wasn't just a crime against Jews, it was crime against all humanity and should be a lesson to all. If Israel is a little radical on the subject - who can blame them.



bbk
Very well said.
 

cyrus

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bbking said:
I already stated what I thought was Mr. Sharon's reasons for his statements. In regards to yourself Cyrus I have found that a lot of anti-semitism today is justified in some logical reason or out right disapproval of the state of Israel and it's policies.

I'm not going to re-post my thoughts on Sharon or his comments - if you can't get or understand the mindset you never will.


bbk
What does this exactly mean? Is it OK to be radical and expansionist in order to compensate for Jew’s lack of action prior to the WWII?
Or are you saying that you are just not going to blame Israeli policies in regard to occupied territories under any circumstances because you understand their mindset and I don’t? :confused:
I am trying to understand where your logic is coming from, is it pure bias or is it some sort of patriotism . . . etc?
 
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cyrus

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bbking said:
To say that that Jews use the holocaust to excuse the policies of the state of Israel is just wrong - to imply that Jews feel they can be inhumane to their fellow man because of the holocaust is also wrong.

If you want to debate Israel's policies on there own merit fine, I can find an equal amount of fault on the other side also. As for Sharon comments, you still don't get what he means or your choosing to ignore that reality of those comments and since I've said them twice you choose not to hear it.


bbk
I never said Jews do that, go back and read all my earlier post.
I said Israeli government does that and they do it with great skills too.
I actually said Jews should be mortified of such a practice.
I place a distinction between Zionist and Jews as a people as I do the same for Moslems versa Islamist Fundamentalist. I know the differences but I am not sure if you do!
 
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