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A world without USA involvement.....

Don

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With all the comments about America here I began to wonder...

Would the world be better off if the USA didn't get involved in foreign affairs.... at all? Not just in terms of military but economic aid, programs, etc. outside of bare minimal involvement. Pulling out all troops everywhere. No support for Israel or any other country. Give up security council seat in the UN. Give minimal funding to the UN. Minimal economic aid to other countries. Neutral stance in all international affairs. Relationship with other countries mainly for just trade. Basically just focus on domestic issues and whatever happens elsewhere don't get involved.

Obviously this is pure fiction (just not feasible for too many reasons) but wondering if people would rather have American involvement (good and bad) vs none at all.

I personally prefer American involvement simply because they "pull-out" then the void will get filled by someone else and other candidates to fill the spot looks much less attractive than the US (unless EU does it.... which can't happen). Overall I feel the US has done more good for the world than bad. But I'm sure many don't agree with me.
 

Necromancer

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Yeah, you better put on the asbestos underwear on this one. You will probably get a lot of "heated" replies.
 

papasmerf

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Looking back 60 years
Europe would be Germany. Of course that might not mean much of a difference.
 
Jan 24, 2004
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The Vegetative State
I've often wondered why the dichotomy propounded by both the left and the right is always between the US being a super-interventionalist and super-isolationist state.

The plain, undisputable fact of the matter is, taking the whole thing over, the US has worked both tremendous good AND tremendous evil in world affairs. It defeated two of the largest and most foul dictatorships the world has ever known. It has also supported and at times created, directly or indirectly, more dictatorships than you could count on two hands. As an aid donor it has kept millions from starving. As an ideological proponent of a global revolution in shock-capitalism-therapy it has ensured that there will be plenty of people in the future who require its aid.

My feeling - personally I have no problem with the US being interventionalist, so long as they exercise more wisdom and frankly more compassion than they have at times past.
 

Ranger68

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It is not in the world's best interests for isolationists to come to power (again) in the US.
It might be better than the current alternative, but it's a close call. ;)
 

WoodPeckr

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Rest Assured People..........

Would the world be better off if the USA didn't get involved in foreign affairs?

Funny isn't it how Clinton used to be lambasted on an almost daily basis for his meddling in foreign affairs, being the world's policeman, nation-building, etc., etc., etc., by those in the GOP. Back then Dubya said he would never waste our resources as Clinton did in this matter.

Sleep well AmeriKKKa Dubya is at the helm...........
 

Don

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Aug 23, 2001
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Re: Rest Assured People..........

WoodPeckr said:
Funny isn't it how Clinton used to be lambasted on an almost daily basis for his meddling in foreign affairs, being the world's policeman, nation-building, etc., etc., etc., by those in the GOP.
This is the big reason for the big split in the GOP by the neo-cons (Bush administration) and the traditional cons (like Pat Buchanan). The traditional cons feel the GOP has strayed from their stance of less meddling in foreign affairs and have been very vocal in blasting the Bush administration of this. Some of the more socially liberal traditional cons have even jumped ship to the Libertarian Party
 

red

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imagine all the people living life in peace...
 

langeweile

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Personally I hope that we (the USA) will pull out of all foreign involvement. It is a no win situation.
We should have honest trade with everybody, but alliances with no one.
I am not sure if "saving Europe" has brought the USA such a big benefit. if you listen to Germany and France today, you could get the impression that we are bitter enemies. Chirac's and Schroeder's rhetoric wanna make me puke.

Let the nations of the world solve their own problems or even better ask Germany or France for help.....
 

assoholic

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..breaking up the CIA would have been a good start. Unfortunately the last guy who talked about that got a bullet in the head.
 

Peeping Tom

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Indeed. But isolationism won't work ... as it is right now, America is supervising a psychotic element, one that will surely require another world war to learn it's lesson. Or, is the real problem that they can't learn this lesson? V.3.0 is going to be pretty bad ...

Look at what they are trying to do now - setting up a neo holy roman empire, without any clearly defined emperor. Lately, this bunch has been talking of setting up pirates and freebooters ... you think leaving them unfettered is a good idea? With their own devices, the world will see a nuclear war within years, certainly less then a decade, if the US stops supervising these children.

As far as I am concerned, if they do it this time no restraint, no remorse. In the long term scheme of things we don't need them.

langeweile said:
I am not sure if "saving Europe" has brought the USA such a big benefit. if you listen to Germany and France today, you could get the impression that we are bitter enemies. Chirac's and Schroeder's rhetoric wanna make me puke.

Let the nations of the world solve their own problems or even better ask Germany or France for help.....
 

Don

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americanson said:
On that note also consider how some including many here in america think the a-bombs were genocide against Japan.
...while nearly every east asian country (esp. Korea, China, etc) besides Japan still feels that the a-bombs were very justified.... though that is not that hard to figure out why.

I feel that dropping the bombs was...wrong. But I do understand the reasoning. the Emperor vowed to never surrender and even though Tokyo was absolutely leveled, they still refused to surrender and the Allies were forced to decide between a land invasion with would bring casualities into the millions (on both sides) and drag the war out for years longer or to use the a-bomb. It was wrong... but I don't criticize the decision has harsh as others.
 

langeweile

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Peeping Tom said:
Indeed. But isolationism won't work ... as it is right now, America is supervising a psychotic element, one that will surely require another world war to learn it's lesson. Or, is the real problem that they can't learn this lesson? V.3.0 is going to be pretty bad ...

Look at what they are trying to do now - setting up a neo holy roman empire, without any clearly defined emperor. Lately, this bunch has been talking of setting up pirates and freebooters ... you think leaving them unfettered is a good idea? With their own devices, the world will see a nuclear war within years, certainly less then a decade, if the US stops supervising these children.

As far as I am concerned, if they do it this time no restraint, no remorse. In the long term scheme of things we don't need them.
I think it is time for the "axis of weasels" to step up to the plate and take charge.Each one of them seems to believe that the way of the USA is wrong. Let them take over in Korea, Taiwan, Europe, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and IRAQ.(did I miss one/) Let them try their way.
Let them start their own nuclear war and kill each other off. With the money saved by bringing ALL the boys back home, we could easily put a large dent in our debt or even better put some serious money behind SDI to protect ourselves.

" Fair Trade with everybody..Alliances with no one"
 

Ranger68

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langeweile said:
Personally I hope that we (the USA) will pull out of all foreign involvement. It is a no win situation.
We should have honest trade with everybody, but alliances with no one.
I am not sure if "saving Europe" has brought the USA such a big benefit. if you listen to Germany and France today, you could get the impression that we are bitter enemies. Chirac's and Schroeder's rhetoric wanna make me puke.

Let the nations of the world solve their own problems or even better ask Germany or France for help.....
Uhhhhh .... yeah. It OBVIOUSLY would have been of terrific benefit if Nazi Germany was the unchallenged ruler of Europe.
I can't think of any benefit their defeat brought to the USA either.
:rolleyes:

Fortunately, isolationists like you are never a dominant breed.
 

Ranger68

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Don said:
...while nearly every east asian country (esp. Korea, China, etc) besides Japan still feels that the a-bombs were very justified.... though that is not that hard to figure out why.

I feel that dropping the bombs was...wrong. But I do understand the reasoning. the Emperor vowed to never surrender and even though Tokyo was absolutely leveled, they still refused to surrender and the Allies were forced to decide between a land invasion with would bring casualities into the millions (on both sides) and drag the war out for years longer or to use the a-bomb. It was wrong... but I don't criticize the decision has harsh as others.
Why was it wrong?
 

Ranger68

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langeweile said:
I think it is time for the "axis of weasels" to step up to the plate and take charge.Each one of them seems to believe that the way of the USA is wrong. Let them take over in Korea, Taiwan, Europe, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan and IRAQ.(did I miss one/) Let them try their way.
Let them start their own nuclear war and kill each other off. With the money saved by bringing ALL the boys back home, we could easily put a large dent in our debt or even better put some serious money behind SDI to protect ourselves.

" Fair Trade with everybody..Alliances with no one"
Funny how they've got an axis for everyone, isn't it?
;)

Fine, maybe we should try our own way. While we're at it, maybe we should put together a UN force and eject you from Iraq, as happened in Korea. (If you think we couldn't, you put far too much stock in the strength of the US' armed forces.) And maybe, since you're breaking international laws by designing missile defenses, we should blockade your coast, as happened in the Cuban missile crisis. At the same time, foreign investors should, as one, pull all their money out of the US. The resultant utter destruction of the US' economy would at least pull you down with the rest of us.

Might makes right. Right?

Your quote is the antithesis of what the current US administration is about. They want and need alliances with everyone they can get hold of to properly execute their war on terror (which is really about global hegemony, but I digress).

Fortunately, again, your breed is always a fringe one.
 

langeweile

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Ranger68 said:
Funny how they've got an axis for everyone, isn't it?
;)

Fine, maybe we should try our own way. While we're at it, maybe we should put together a UN force and eject you from Iraq, as happened in Korea. (If you think we couldn't, you put far too much stock in the strength of the US' armed forces.) And maybe, since you're breaking international laws by designing missile defenses, we should blockade your coast, as happened in the Cuban missile crisis. At the same time, foreign investors should, as one, pull all their money out of the US. The resultant utter destruction of the US' economy would at least pull you down with the rest of us.

Might makes right. Right?

Your quote is the antithesis of what the current US administration is about. They want and need alliances with everyone they can get hold of to properly execute their war on terror (which is really about global hegemony, but I digress).

Fortunately, again, your breed is always a fringe one.
The US foreign policy will always be a no win situation.
You have people on side crying that the USA is flexing it's muscle too much, that you have others crying the US is not doing enough.
Go figure?
Who will be in charge to determine when intervention is acceptable and when it isn't?

I would not be to sure about me being on the fringe. The circling the wagon mentality is an American invention.
Wait before all the bad things, that everybody is predicting are coming to pass.
More deads in Iraq, the debt load crushing the economy, Korea and Taiwan and some others, and you will see that people like Buchanan get a lot more airtime. "America first" will be the next buzz word, and remember where you heard it first....LOL

BTW I am pro free trade, but I don't believe we can, nor should we be, the police of the world.
 

ocean976124

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Oct 28, 2002
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Don said:
...while nearly every east asian country (esp. Korea, China, etc) besides Japan still feels that the a-bombs were very justified.... though that is not that hard to figure out why.

I feel that dropping the bombs was...wrong. But I do understand the reasoning. the Emperor vowed to never surrender and even though Tokyo was absolutely leveled, they still refused to surrender and the Allies were forced to decide between a land invasion with would bring casualities into the millions (on both sides) and drag the war out for years longer or to use the a-bomb. It was wrong... but I don't criticize the decision has harsh as others.
It was also difficult for Truman to really understand the devastation that the A-Bomb would cause not only upon impact but for years to follow. We live in hindsight and understand the difference between the A-Bomb and a regular bomb. In WWII, I think Truman only understood it as a valuable weapon that would bring US troops home earlier.
 

ocean976124

Arrogant American Idiot
Oct 28, 2002
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langeweile said:
Chirac's and Schroeder's rhetoric wanna make me puke.
Schroeder isn't nearly as bad as Chriac. I still, for the life of me, do not understand why France which has no military force in NATO still gets to make decisions in NATO...
 

Ranger68

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langeweile said:
The US foreign policy will always be a no win situation.
You have people on side crying that the USA is flexing it's muscle too much, that you have others crying the US is not doing enough.
Go figure?
Who will be in charge to determine when intervention is acceptable and when it isn't?

I would not be to sure about me being on the fringe. The circling the wagon mentality is an American invention.
Wait before all the bad things, that everybody is predicting are coming to pass.
More deads in Iraq, the debt load crushing the economy, Korea and Taiwan and some others, and you will see that people like Buchanan get a lot more airtime. "America first" will be the next buzz word, and remember where you heard it first....LOL

BTW I am pro free trade, but I don't believe we can, nor should we be, the police of the world.
Actually, I agree with you about foreign policy being a "no-win" situation - well, that's the perception at least. It often descends to a choice between the lesser of two evils. This is not a good argument to withdraw from foreign affairs, however, but I agree that nations suffer a lot of grief regarding these decisions - much of it unfounded.

I am *not* one of those who thinks that US foreign policy, over the years, has generally been a disaster. The current administration's course, however, is not similary to that of past administrations.

Isolationism is not an American invention.
 
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