Iraq Re-Consturction in Context

DAMNIT

Do not use facts to cloud an issue

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Winston said:

So, you are suggesting that Iraq should be as efficient and orderly as Germany?

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No what is suggested is Iraq is on the road to a free democracy

Winston said:

ROTFLMAO

1) the iraqi government is no more independant of the United States, than Moscow is free of Russian influence

2) the Iraqi "central bank" is not going to bring democracy, any more than the central bank of China is bringing democracy there

3) the Iraqi police are afraid to patrol without US protection

4) you don't force democracy to happy, at the pointy end of a bayonet.

5) the creation of a few "institutions" by the United States, is not going to overcome the hundreds of years of local culture, including the culture of not having a democracy.

6) Take a look at Afghanistan. 10 million registered voters, 11 million counted votes. American style democracy in action.

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Yawn!!!!!!!!!!

**Florida Style** democracy..... LOL

The points brought up by ocean are certainly valid and are accomplishments to be applauded. Nonetheless one must wonder if the democratic institutions in Iraq such as the local government, central bank, constitution etc are actually ready to stand on their own. i.e. If the US troops were to pull out over say, the next 12 months, would Iraq stand as a full democratic nation?

In the case of Germany one must first recognize that 1946 was a time when things just happened slower than they do today. But interestingly, Germany already had the makings of a strong democracy to begin with. With the exception of Hitler and the Nazi Party, Germany had fully established the notion of trial by court, central banking and if not exactly a constitution then at least a good sense of federalism brought about by centuries of having a monarchy. Under Saddam, Iraq never really had a fair chance to develop these fundamental building blocks.

So while the accomplishments in Iraq are positive developments, it is entirely possible that many of the initiatives were implemented hastily without first ensuring a strong foundation upon which a true democratic society can be built. Elections in Iraq notwithstanding, I fear that if the US military were to pull out, we would find a leadership vaccuum at many levels of government which would ultimately have catastrophic consequences to Iraq and its peoples.

..Just the other day 18 (?) US personnel in Iraq refused orders to drive their trucks, they may be charged with mutiny amd although unlikely could face the firing squad. Tonight on CNN there was a story about how none of the troops believe in the whole " Democracy thing" for Iraq. The cracks are already appearing, they will pull out within a couple of years regardless of the situation. Most Americans just wanted pay back, I think more and more have gotten their fill and will soon start to realize exactly the kind of mess their sons and daughters are in over there.

no way...dubya and his boys have screwed it up. the speed in no way makes up for the mistakes they've made...and continue to make.

FWIW the current administation doesn't even give a semblance of a fuck about Iraq.

1) The same cultural unification that allowed Nazism to flourish also helped democracy along; at the end of the war Germany had, for the most part, a culturally and linguistically homogeneous population. This cannot be said for Iraq.

2) When Germany unified in 1871 it did so from internal pressure to resist encroachment from France. In other words, Germans (well, Prussians, anyway) created Germany. Again, this cannot be said for Iraq, which was created as a country of convenience by external powers.

3) Germany had been a democracy for several decades before the war, albeit not a terribly successful one. This has never been true for Iraq.

Conclusions? We should take everything on ocean's list with about a pound of salt - the idea that Iraq currently enjoys "full" sovereignty is laughable, and most reports have sizeable portions of the police force within Iraq in cohoots with insurgents.

It took years to establish democracy within Germany, which had only lived under a dictatorship for a little more than a decade. The fact that Bush claims to have done such a thing in such a short period of time in much, much more difficult circumstances should inspire us with less, not more, confidence.

ocean976124 said:

LOCAL GOVERNMENTS INSTALLED
Iraq 2 MONTHS
Germany 8 MONTHS

INDEPENDENT CENTRAL BANK
Iraq 2 MONTHS
Germany 3 YEARS

POLICE ESTABLISHED
Iraq 2 MONTHS
Germany 14 MONTHS

FULL SOVEREIGNTY
Iraq 1 YEAR
Germany 10 YEARS

NEW CONSTITUTION
Iraq 2.5 YEARS
Germany 4 YEARS


See also: http://blog.simmins.org/2004/06/how-soon-we-forget-post-war-germany.html

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This comparison makes no sense. The numbers you quote for Germany are real. The ones for Iraq are imaginary. You are projecting into the future based on what? Iraq has never had a democracy, unlike Germany before Word War II. The infrastructure necessary for democracy to florish does not exist.

Democracy only woks if it is generated from within, by the will of the populace. It cannot work if it is imposed from without.

papasmerf said:

No what is suggested is Iraq is on the road to a free democracy

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What Iraq is on the road to ... is a full civil war. At very least a replay of Yugoslavia's disintegration if not Lebanon - which may spill over into Turkey and Syria. I am always amazed that those who back this Republican administration, are the least experienced in the ME, the least traveled and least studied.

Even Bush admitted yesterday that Iraq could have an Islamic government, which is such a step backward. Sepration of state and religion is critical, and Iraq by representation would be a Shiite state. The same idiots who brought you Iraq, would like to see Syrias regime over thrown - which would again, lead to an Islamic govt that would take democracy a step backward, much less for the rights of 50% of the population. Christian groups in Iraq are less secure than they were under Saddam, women under pressure to wear chadours, and participation in the workforce limited.

The invasion of Iraq will go down as one of the first major blunders in this new Milenium as it impacts the West.

..the problem is there is a large Theocratic state right beside it that will attemopt to influence in that way. I agree with Cobra s assessment but disagree in that it was a blunder. The US knew what it was doing, leaving a nice big mess behind for Russia & Co to deal with.