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The Myth of Monogamy

drlove

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Oct 14, 2001
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The doctor is in
This ties in with Prodigal's thread....

I just finished listening to an interview that deals in part with a book called The Myth of Monogamy The interviewer (female) asked the guest (male) why he desired to have multiple sexual liasons with various partners.

He response was along the lines of:I'll spell it out for you. M-A-N

The basic premise is that infidelity is endemic to all males, since we are predisposed biologically to procreate with as many different females as possible.

The gentleman is against marriage as an institution, since men as he puts it, cannot be faithful to just one woman for the rest of their lives for the aforementioned reasons. His solution is to maintain an open relationship with a steady partner that would still allow him to bed down an assortment of other ladies.

In terms of this hobby, I am sure most of us have met an SP who embodies the term GFE. Technically, then, she provides all that we seek in an encounter. However, how many hobbiests can honestly say that they have limited their activities to just one such lady?? My guess is very few, if any.

Even after spending time with a gfe, I still have the desire to meet new ladies on a regular basis in the interests of variety. Therefore, I concur with the gentleman's assessment of the situation. "Faithfulness" in a relationship seems to be built more on maintaining the status quo in terms of family dynamics etc. than on an inate desire to do so.

Food for Thought.....
 

TheNiteHwk

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drlove said:
This ties in with Prodigal's thread...
. "Faithfulness" in a relationship seems to be built more on maintaining the status quo in terms of family dynamics etc. than on an inate desire to do so.
Food for Thought.....
I agree. I have always been faithful when in a couple relationship. However it was sometimes not out of lack of desire for other activities, but more for keeping the relationship. ie: I did not want to get caught. Also though I would not want to give her permission to do same. ie: If I fool around then would have to let her do the same.
Here's another question. How many men do you think still have an attitude that it's OK for them to have multiply partners, to fool around etc... and not OK for women? I know for me when in couple relationship if I find out she fooled around then it's over. No ifs, ands or buts. It's over.
 

Alanis

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Hello,
interesting thread and suggestions. Nevertheless, this evolutionary explanation of males' polygamy is very controversial. For one thing, if it's true, then it reduces a man's role to an instrumental one only, and I am sure not everyone feels comfortable with this implication. What the theory fails to capture is the complexity of social/cultural/moral considerations and that's why many people don't fully agree with this perspective and take it as an example of biological reductionism.

Nevertheless, the real myth is that women are much more monogamous than men are! Yet, there are perhaps more men that explore sexuality outside of their relationships than women, but women are not as innocent as men think. Many women do have extra-marital relationships, although they are not as visible. Not to scare everyone, but we just keep them quiet...
:D
 
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Willywants

The Hunter Gatherer Syndrome!!

Well Doc!
I have to basically agree with the interviewee's answer, "M A N"!
While the man is off hunting and foraging for food to sustain life, the woman keeps hearth and home warm!
We really have not, as yet, evolved that far, as men, from the caveman!
But look at how far women have come! It boggles the mind!
It would seem that the only resemblance between today's women and cavewomen is that accursed maternal instinct!
If it wasn't for that, and the natural forces that emanate from it, we as men, would cease to exist, as would human existence on earth.
So, in looking at the two diverse desires to procreate the species, on the one hand, you have the unfaithful, yet well intentioned male, with the desire to impregnate everything with a vagina, and the female, as well intentioned, to attract the male for copulation and impregnation! The difference being, it only takes one male to impregnate the female, while there's a whole world of females for the male to impregnate!
Such a dilemma!

Willywants (to unsramble that conundrum!)
 

Alanis

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Re: The Hunter Gatherer Syndrome!!

Originally posted by Willywants The difference being, it only takes one male to impregnate the female, while there's a whole world of females for the male to impregnate!
Such a dilemma! [/B]
...but see, if we follow the logic of the evolutionary theory on male fascination with multiple partners, then female's genetic material is at premium (because women are born only with a certain number of eggs) and male's genetic material is simply "cheap" (constant production of sperm), so its really in your own interest to impregnate as many women as possible. Again, it reduces a man to a sort of an instrument...doesn't this sound uncomfortable?
 
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drlove

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The doctor is in
To TheNiteHwk:

I believe that a double standard does exist in that some men seem to feel that while it is ok for them to mess around, their wives should remain faithful.

Isn't that calling the kettle black??? Really, what kind of hypocritical bull**** is that?? It's the same type of reasoning a parent uses when telling their child not to smoke while they themselves have a lit cigarette in their hand. You can't have it both ways.

If you're going to cheat, how can you then expect your partner not to??? After all, as Alanis said, women are not that innocent, either! This is why the concept of an open relationship holds water. At least that way, you can be upfront about it.

I.e. In my last relationship, the two of us agreed that even though we were "together", we could still see other people. There were no problems, no lies, and we didn't waste time and energy worrying about whether or not the other person was being faithful, because we didn't have to. Problem solved.

To Alanis, the notion that the idea of a man being seen as an "instrument" is uncomfortable, is irrelevant in my opinion. After all, the man is getting exactly what he wants. He can jump from bed to bed, heeding the call of nature, and at the end of the day, if he's lucky, he can cuddle up with a non-judgemental partner.

What more could a guy ask for?? :)
 
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Willywants

An Instrument of Nature!

Hi Alanis!
Not to get too philosophical on this thread, but, as the human ego, ergo self, encompassing both male and female, esteems the existence of man on earth higher than any other life form, sight is lost of the fact that man is but an animal form with a need to procreate and survive!
In that context, we are all but instruments of nature!
I'm comfortable with that!
We all know what we have to do to procreate!
Surviving is the trick!

Willywants (to pick this conversation up any time!)
 

C Dick

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By far the best explanation for male (and female) sexual behaviour that I have found is in the book Sperm Wars by Robin Baker. He explains all kinds of behaviour (oral sex, when she cums, why women are cryptic, etc.) in a way that made considerable sense to me. It is not a hard read. You can get it at Chapters, etc. I have bought about a dozen copies for people I know, and made my wife read it, because it is so enlightening.
 

luckyjackson

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I love this subject. Very interesting.

I think the two elements Alannis mentioned need to be clearly separated. The first element is the effect of biology, the second that of the conditioning effect of society.

Alannis seemed to be saying that to accept the fact of male attraction to multiple partners is to reduce the male role in society to that of 'sperm source'. If that's the argument, I disagree.

Evolution has been acting on us for millions of years, societal conditioning for just a few thousand. Regardless of which is stronger, it seems self evident that sexual behaviour is not the sole determinant of our roles in society.

Recently there was a program, (Discovery channel I think), that addressed this fascinating issue. It explored the evolutionary reasons behind our attraction to physical types and offered explanations for learned behaviours. Pretty cool stuff. I always wondered why so many men find big breasts and symmetry of form sexy.
 

johnhenrygalt

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My wife has cheated and still cheats on me (it started before we were married so I knew what I was getting into). The 1st few times she felt horrible (due to a very religious upbringing, she felt she had committed mortal sin). She finally has gotten used to the idea that she likes sex (alot) and that she doesn't have to "purge" herself of these "impure" thoughts.

To be honest, I'd rather she be faithful, but if and only if her faithfulness did not detract from her strong sex drive. Given the choice between a faithful but sexually boring wife and a sexually adventurous but unfaithful wife, I'll take the latter any day. With my wife, the more sex she gets the more she wants. During her last affair with a guy at work, when she'd get it from him during the day, she'd come home at night begging for more. OTOH, during periods when the stresses of life don't permit us much intimacy, she can go 2 or 3 weeks without it no problem.

Getting over the ego damage of knowing my wife was getting fucked by other guys took me a long time (and strained the relationship almost to divorce), but it has been worth getting over this.

She still is a complicated person (as are all women), because despite her open affairs, she would find it very hard to deal with my infidelity. I can openly discuss with her about how I find other women sexy, and when were out together and she happens to see a hot girl, she'll point her out to me, but her ego would take a huge blow if I actually told her I have fucked other women.

So, my wife doesn't officially "know" about my extra-curricular activities (both with professionals and the occasional GF), but I'm sure she knows what's going on. I still play the deception game, telling her I'm out with clients, to allow her to "save face". I could make a big scene about how she cheats on me so I can cheat on her, and I'd be right, but what's the point? For now this works for us.
 

Alanis

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Very interesting thoughts...

LJ:
Ironically, that's the idea with this biological justification of male infidelity. The evolutionary perspective is just biological in its roots, there is no mention of societal merits of men: just the survival value is what counts. Males/females behave that way just to spread their genes. That's why the theory is so controversial since it reduces us to mindless instruments of biology driven by the instinct of survival.

Just like Willy said, we are after all animals and subject to natural laws, but what's natural is not necessarily good. It's something that just happens. Throughout our history men, as rational beings with brains capable for abstract thought that developed later in our evolutionary course, started giving a meaning/value to all known phenomena in nature. In many cultures, monogamy became a model for a family formation, but not exclusively.

So, our dilemma is that we have an older part of our brains that relies mostly on instincts and urges and a newer, cortical one on the top, whose function is to chose what desires to give priority to. Of course, the way we assign a moral value to various behaviours depends on our cultural tradition we're immersed in. Yet, different people internalize different aspects of the moral code!

As a sort of fallen angel myself I am not here to judge anybody, but it seems to me that before we engage in a certain behaviour we should really think first whether our actions will not cause anybody some pain. We can certainly nicely justify our behaviour in terms of variety, biological drives, etc., but I think that what really matters is to consider other person's feelings before anything happens. If you commit yourself to a marriage, stay in it. If you feel that monogamy is not for you, resolve your marriage before you indulge in variety, or if you both see things the same way, as Johnhenrygalt mentioned, great!. Much simpler that way!

The important point here is not to hurt anyone and yourself in the end.
 
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drlove

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Alanis, I couldn't have said it better myself!

I believe that everyone should live their lives in whatever manner they choose, as long as they don't hurt themselves or someone else in any way, shape or form.

Words to live by.
 

luckyjackson

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Ironically, that's the idea with this biological justification of male infidelity.
Umm...I'm not seeing the irony. Perhaps, like the famous Alanis - you've misused the word?? ;)

What is your understanding of the 'bio justification argument'? If it is that men want to fuck a lot of women because they're programmed to spread their genes as widely as possible, then I would say that's a logical and persuasive theory. But if you are saying that the theory does not stop there, and goes on to chalk up ALL male behaviour to this desire for multiple partners, then I think I'd agree with you that there's no proof for that.

I don't care what's 'controversial' when it comes to science. I care about accuracy and that proper scientific method is followed. In other words, if some scientist out there states that evolution and biology is solely responsible for male behaviour - fine. But let him prove it.
 

Alanis

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The irony was that the biological argument actually DOES separate biological from societal considerations of the role of a man. It only focuses narrowly on the biology. It's just bewildering that the theory tries to explain complex human behaviour in simple existential terms.

...and I hope that the irony is not that I misread your post.

Yes, it is very speculative without much of a predictive power, as all scientific theories should have.
 
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james t kirk

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Ok ok, lets nip something in the bud here.

I have heard the arguement (over and over) that men want to fuck as many women as possible in order to spread their genes.

Sorry, i totally disagree.

As a happy horny male, the LAST FUCKING THING i want to do is spread my genes into the wind.

I'd be broke.

It is my all time nightmare to hear those words, "I have something to tell you - I'm pregnant"

Screwing and spreading genes to me are two VERY different things.

When i am ready to spread my genes, and i meet a woman who wants them, then i will go for it.

Until then, i just want to fuck everything in sight and not have to worry about support payments for 20 years with a chick i met over a bottle of red wine.

I want to fuck lots of different women for one simple reason.

It's fun.

I love their bodies.

I love pleasing them.

I love the way they please me

I like the way it feels, smells, tastes, everything.

It has nothing to do with spreading genes. I have often cursed that sex and reproduction were one and the same.

On the other note......

Yes women cheat, probably MORE than men truth be told. But women fuck around in a different way usually (though not always.)

In my experience cheating women are looking for the emotional support they are not getting at home.

Men, by and large, are just looking for the thrill of the new body, the new set of tits and ass. We want the GFE, but we want to walk away an hour later, back to the suburbs, the wife, the kids, the known entity.

Perhaps, this is why many SPs don't do the kissing / intimacy thing because they know this and it makes them feel used. I dunno.

That's why the double standard in our society when it comes to cheating spouse. Why a man can fuck a different woman every week other than his wife and still kid himself that he is on the whole faithfull to her - because he doesn't bring it home. It's sex, not love.

That's why that same man will go orbital when he finds out his wife (who he has been fucking around on for years either with pros, or casual pickups from one source or another) has a boyfriend on the side.

Because now the asshole feels threatened, that she doesn't love him any more, which is probably the case. Meanwhile, for all the screwing around he has done, he has never stopped loving her. It's just that he couldn't control himself. No matter how hard he tried, he couldn't control himself.

On one hand you look at it when it does go down, as "oh well, I can hardly stand in judgement of her", but on the other, you think, "fucking lying cheating cunt"

Now he wants her more than ever, but it's too late.

Now, that's ironic. :(
 

Alanis

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...A lot of truth in it. Indeed, the motivation behind cheating has been studied scientifically and that's exactly what has been found: women cheat for emotional reasons and men for physical ones in general, as James t kirk mentioned above.

That's, by large, of course. How about a scenario in which a woman repeatedly cheats only for a physical gratification with a fine, muscular, handsome man? ...and variety? Would that make you feel a bit less threatened and more forgiving? Or should we say that cheating is just cheating and that's it?
 

luckyjackson

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Ok, how's this for a provocative statement? I don't think women are as horny as men.

I mean, if men could fuck whenever they wanted to, they would do it a lot more. But women can, in effect, fuck whenever they want to, and don't.

JTK, I think you misunderstood the 'spreading genes' theory for male sexual behaviour. It isn't that men want to consciously spread their genes and sire children. Nature makes men want to fuck (by making it pleasurable) as a way of getting the genes spread.

For example, the theory goes that fruits are sweet because that way they attracted more animals, who eat the fruit, shit out the seeds, and thereby spread the reproduction of the plant. The fruit doesn't want to be sweet, it's just a chance mutation that results in reproductive success. Same for us, you don't control your urge, it's just nature's way.

If anyone is interested in evolution and it's effect on human development I strongly recommend you read the book Guns Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond (Pulitzer Prize winner and bestseller). It's a really interesting read, even if you don't agree 100% with his argument for how the world got to be the way it is today.

Professor LJ. ;)
 
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