Risk in going to MP now?

wanttodo · Apr 5, 2015

In light of the recent RCMP busts, what is the level of risk for getting a massage at a holistic spa..with an attendant with a holistic license?

Many MPA's are here on student visa's but working PT in massage. Would these girls be considered "trafficked" and high risk? I don't want any trouble from just getting a massage.

TeasePlease · Apr 5, 2015

'Course not .

students who consciously make the decision to get into the biz as an expedient way to support themselves through school are not trafficked.

But, as with agencies, it all depends on the MP you choose to frequent. Not all MPs are equal, and not all BRPs are equal. Some are reputable, some are not. Some do a poor job of managing their staff, some do a poor job keeping out undesirable elements, like trafficked girlsm pimps and drugs. The scary part is sometimes, perceptions are misleading. Some terbies like to preach that if you stay away from Asian places, you'll be safe. They can't guarantee that and you shouldn't believe it. Everyone gets offered the same deals from the same guys. Some owners are smart enough to say no.

Just use your head and keep your eyes open.

elusion · Apr 6, 2015

TP is absolutely correct. Both with agencies and MPs, this is the time to go with the top brands. These shops not only have the wherewithal to source the "clean" staff, run a tight ship, but are often well connected with LEs to help weed out trafficking and exploitative situations, such as mentioned many times by MPA2 of Muse. This is certainly not the time to go hunting for hidden gems. Go with the tried and true.

d_jedi · Apr 6, 2015

There is definitely a risk. As we have just recently seen, clients were arrested when an agency (which, IIRC, advertised on terb) was busted.
Now, there may very well have been reasons to bust that particular agency, and there may very well have been red flags for hobbyists to stay away (don't know, that place was never on my radar).

Now, we may like to think that everything is on the up and up at <insert favourite MP here>, but the fact is, we really don't know everything that goes on "behind the scenes". This business can, at times, be ruthless, and if you've been around long enough, you've probably heard some stories (always take with a grain of salt.. consider the source and their motivations!) and maybe have a few of your own to tell.

I think we can probably make some reasonable assumptions about which places may be safer (not necessarily safe), as police seem to be picking off what might be considered the "low hanging fruit".

But the fact is, a lot of what happens in a MP is arguably verboten under C-36 (or, at least, LE may interpret the law in that way), and so there is risk. The question you need to ask yourself is.. is the risk worth the reward? Personally, I've decided it's not (along with other factors) and I've been sitting on the sidelines. But obviously others have made a different choice.. and so far it's worked out just fine for them.

stay · Apr 6, 2015

d_jedi said:
There is definitely a risk. As we have just recently seen, clients were arrested when an agency (which, IIRC, advertised on terb) was busted.
Now, there may very well have been reasons to bust that particular agency, and there may very well have been red flags for hobbyists to stay away (don't know, that place was never on my radar).

Now, we may like to think that everything is on the up and up at <insert favourite MP here>, but the fact is, we really don't know everything that goes on "behind the scenes". This business can, at times, be ruthless, and if you've been around long enough, you've probably heard some stories (always take with a grain of salt.. consider the source and their motivations!) and maybe have a few of your own to tell.

I think we can probably make some reasonable assumptions about which places may be safer (not necessarily safe), as police seem to be picking off what might be considered the "low hanging fruit".

But the fact is, a lot of what happens in a MP is arguably verboten under C-36 (or, at least, LE may interpret the law in that way), and so there is risk. The question you need to ask yourself is.. is the risk worth the reward? Personally, I've decided it's not (along with other factors) and I've been sitting on the sidelines. But obviously others have made a different choice.. and so far it's worked out just fine for them.

Exactly, just because a MP has a nice lobby, doesn't mean squat. The behind the scenes and behind the mask on the MP face may just be lipstick for a pig. At best this world is shady, with all the elements that go along with it at worst it habours the second (sometimes the most) disgusting element of our society.

wanttodo · Apr 6, 2015

If the MPA is over 18, has a holistic/Bodyrub license, and is working in the MP of her own choice all is good. However, if the MPA is here on a Visa that is not 100% legit, this may trigger the "trafficked" problem. Are customers supposed to start asking the MPA if they are legally allowed to be in the country....it's getting crazy out there.

stay · Apr 6, 2015

wanttodo said:
If the MPA is over 18, has a holistic/Bodyrub license, and is working in the MP of her own choice all is good. However, if the MPA is here on a Visa that is not 100% legit, this may trigger the "trafficked" problem. Are customers supposed to start asking the MPA if they are legally allowed to be in the country....it's getting crazy out there.

My opinion, NO. BUT it suggests a need for special laws pertaining to the selling of sex. It is not only trafficking that is an issue, for some it is the fact that the GOODS and services offered are not in line with the community expectations. For others the issue lies somewhere in between.

TeasePlease · Apr 6, 2015

wanttodo said:
If the MPA is over 18, has a holistic/Bodyrub license, and is working in the MP of her own choice all is good. However, if the MPA is here on a Visa that is not 100% legit, this may trigger the "trafficked" problem. Are customers supposed to start asking the MPA if they are legally allowed to be in the country....it's getting crazy out there.

Lol. Not only do we worry about confusing bylaws and Crim Code, now we have to worry about confusing the Crim Code and the Immigration Act?

Not having a valid work permit or immigration status doesn't "trigger" trafficking risks. But, I would agree that the probability of the girl having been trafficked *may* be higher.

I may be wrong, but IIRC, you can't get a body rubber license without proving your eligibility to work in Canada.

btw, Stay and the others are right and say it better than I. Lux decor and fancy accoutrements do not guarantee that a spa is well run. It just means the owners are willing to spend money or that they are aggressive marketers. Sometimes, the fanciest and most well-known places run closest to the edge of the line. Keep your eyes open and you'll soon see for yourself.

stay · Apr 6, 2015

TeasePlease said:
I may be wrong, but IIRC, you can't get a body rubber license without proving your eligibility to work in Canada.

You are 100% correct, when obtaining a licence, you must have valid photo ID from a Canadian source, that can only be obtained with a valid visa.

Also, didn't immigration stop issuing work visas for sex work?

d_jedi · Apr 6, 2015

stay said:
You are 100% correct, when obtaining a licence, you must have valid photo ID from a Canadian source, that can only be obtained with a valid visa.

Also, didn't immigration stop issuing work visas for sex work?

That doesn't mean unlicensed girls aren't working at a licensed BR/holistic. Sure, there are bylaw infractions and fines involved, but it does happen.

stay · Apr 6, 2015

d_jedi said:
That doesn't mean unlicensed girls aren't working at a licensed BR/holistic. Sure, there are bylaw infractions and fines involved, but it does happen.

True but I hope that all those are Canadian, hate to see some foreign tugger taken a job away from a Canuck chucker.

TeasePlease · Apr 6, 2015

stay said:
You are 100% correct, when obtaining a licence, you must have valid photo ID from a Canadian source, that can only be obtained with a valid visa.

Also, didn't immigration stop issuing work visas for sex work?

They shut down the program that invited foreign exotic dancers. They gave some bullshit reason for the termination. But the scuttlebutt was that demand was waning and the dancers turned to sexwork.

ARHC · Apr 6, 2015

Hey Djedi! Long time no see

I just read that article and the thread on Toe88 bust. It does say clearly that it has been under investigation for a year and the first arrests were actually made in March 2014. And there is the whole bunch of charges and off course the underaged one, which alone is enough for a big bust. And guys are criticizing RCMP etc, but you know, a while ago I met an Asian girl who told me that I was lucky to have my papers in order.. She wasn't that lucky and cldnt get a job at a licensed spa or a strip club.. She had to work for an agency where bare-back services were a must and the owner was taking most of the money and giving her pennies for her services. after listening to stories like that u start actually believing most things that articles say

wanttodo · Apr 7, 2015

stay said:
You are 100% correct, when obtaining a licence, you must have valid photo ID from a Canadian source, that can only be obtained with a valid visa.

Also, didn't immigration stop issuing work visas for sex work?

Here's what the ladies typically need to obtain a holistic practitioner license. https://www.ocr.edu/toronto.htm

The following is a checklist of licence requirements:

Proof of work status
Sign police waiver
Identification
Police clearance
Visit our office for a photo to be taken
Provide your certificate and proof of current membership from OCR (effective June 2012, you must obtain a letter from OCR verifying your status as a current member - when applying/renewing, please send an email to OCR requesting a letter before you submit your application )
Pay the prescribed application fee of $288.60 (renewal fee is $164.11)

Would the police complete a criminal background check without verifying a person's visa/work permits are legit?

TeasePlease · Apr 7, 2015

ARHC said:
?..after listening to stories like that u start actually believing most things that articles say

and after hearing such stories time and again, from different sources, you start to believe that it may not be isolated incidents. Sadly, there's more to the industry than what we see on terb, and goes for owners, too.

wanttodo said:
Would the police complete a criminal background check without verifying a person's visa/work permits are legit?

Dude, you're mixing holistic and bodurubber and bylaw/licensing and police.

stay · Apr 7, 2015

TeasePlease said:
They shut down the program that invited foreign exotic dancers. They gave some bullshit reason for the termination. But the scuttlebutt was that demand was waning and the dancers turned to sexwork.

There was a stink brought up by parents/foreign counsel when a dancer died, I don't remember whether it was suicide, overdose or murder though and I am just too lazy to find out. That was the initial trigger that brought on the withdrawal of issuing permits, if memory serves me correctly. Of course those who knew me way back when, I too was directly involved with complaints to the member overseeing immigration.

d_jedi · Apr 7, 2015

ARHC said:
Hey Djedi! Long time no see

Hi Crystal! It's been too long!! Hope you're doing well!

I just read that article and the thread on Toe88 bust. It does say clearly that it has been under investigation for a year and the first arrests were actually made in March 2014. And there is the whole bunch of charges and off course the underaged one, which alone is enough for a big bust.

The problem is, from a client's perspective, a lot of that is very opaque and "behind the scenes". Short of asking for ID or to see the girl's license when you arrive at the spa, there is no way to know for sure if everything is on the up and up. I have to figure that the clients who were arrested in the TOE88 bust had no idea the girls were underaged (if they did, and they sought that out.. well.. they get what they deserve). They were collateral damage, if you will. That's of no comfort to them, though, as they're still facing criminal charges.

The other problem is.. the lines of what's OK and what's not OK are.. blurred (I hate these blurred lines!). As I see it, there are things that are completely legal, things that are de facto legal (meaning.. it might not technically be legal, but the police will not bother you), and those that are illegal. Something like a legit RMT massage is obviously legal. Seeing an underaged SP or doing anything non-consensual is obviously illegal. But where the line is between legal and de facto legal, and de facto legal and illegal is very blurry and not well defined.

What exactly is a "sexual service for consideration" under C-36? Depending on how broadly it's defined, it could potentially encompass virtually every session I've ever had (including with one RMT.. but that's another story ;p)

What are the police criteria to arrest someone under this law? Are licensed BRs and holistics who follow the rules "safe" in Toronto? So far, no one's been busted.. but will things stay that way? Police have not publicly said that clients of licensed BRs and holistics will not be charged, and absent that, there is uncertainty.

TeasePlease · Apr 7, 2015

Ah, but looking for certainty in life is a bit like chasing unicorns.

ARHC · Apr 8, 2015

d_jedi said:
Hi Crystal! It's been too long!! Hope you're doing well!

The problem is, from a client's perspective, a lot of that is very opaque and "behind the scenes". Short of asking for ID or to see the girl's license when you arrive at the spa, there is no way to know for sure if everything is on the up and up. I have to figure that the clients who were arrested in the TOE88 bust had no idea the girls were underaged (if they did, and they sought that out.. well.. they get what they deserve). They were collateral damage, if you will. That's of no comfort to them, though, as they're still facing criminal charges.

The other problem is.. the lines of what's OK and what's not OK are.. blurred (I hate these blurred lines!). As I see it, there are things that are completely legal, things that are de facto legal (meaning.. it might not technically be legal, but the police will not bother you), and those that are illegal. Something like a legit RMT massage is obviously legal. Seeing an underaged SP or doing anything non-consensual is obviously illegal. But where the line is between legal and de facto legal, and de facto legal and illegal is very blurry and not well defined.

What exactly is a "sexual service for consideration" under C-36? Depending on how broadly it's defined, it could potentially encompass virtually every session I've ever had (including with one RMT.. but that's another story ;p)

What are the police criteria to arrest someone under this law? Are licensed BRs and holistics who follow the rules "safe" in Toronto? So far, no one's been busted.. but will things stay that way? Police have not publicly said that clients of licensed BRs and holistics will not be charged, and absent that, there is uncertainty.

Well Body Rub parlours and some holistics are inspected once a month by the city. I can speak for myself only but there is no way I cld get away with hiring an unlicensed Attendant. I support the regular by-law inspections, where not only the licences are checked but also officers communicate with ladies to make sure everybody is there on their own will. And I do hope this system never changes!

Cobra Enorme · Apr 8, 2015

Not even the cops know the law. they charged those guys this week for being in a common bawdy house. I dont have time to lose my marriage and pay $20,000 for my lawyer to get me off and have the charges hopefully dropped. this is nuts.

Risk in going to MP now?

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