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Rockslinger

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Apr 24, 2005
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In the 19th century the British banks ruled the waves.
In the 20th century the American banks ruled the waves.
In the 21st century the Canadian banks rule the waves.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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In the 19th century the British banks ruled the waves.
In the 20th century the American banks ruled the waves.
In the 21st century the Canadian banks rule the waves.
Not exactly. they are small birds flying under the radar.
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
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In the 19th century the British banks ruled the waves.
Sure, like Midland Bank plc. It was the largest deposit bank in the world in 1934 but things went down hill. The bank was a dog for years until HSBC took over in 1992.

In the 20th century the American banks ruled the waves.
Why not? Citibank before 1991 was a respectable bank outside the US, while Goldman is the benchmark for Investment banking.

Having said that, there are way too many American banks and their "blind optimistic" capitalism mindset is way over the top. They paid a hefty price to take outsize risk for the sake of it in 2008.

And how could I forget to mention the headwind the American banks are going to deal with down the road,

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/JubaksJournal/the-big-us-banks-biggest-problem.aspx

In the 21st century the Canadian banks rule the waves.
LOL, not so fast. Canadian banks and their Australian counterparts may be sound and prudent (less greedy) but they don't have the size to compete (market cap and AUM) globally.

Plus, they are known to be oligopoly to gouge (some even say license to rob) the depositors and backward in rolling out new technologies. The latter is not so sure nowadays since the Americans now are even further behind. :rolleyes:
 

Rockslinger

Banned
Apr 24, 2005
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Canadian banks and their Australian counterparts may be sound and prudent (less greedy) but they don't have the size to compete (market cap and AUM) globally.
I think Canada and Australia should unite in a federation of equals. The new country will be named AusCana and the Prime Minister will alternate. One term Canada and the next term Australia. It will be a country of 60 million people with a huge asset base.

P.S. Hope the Aussies aren't pissed off that we denied them Potash.
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
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Not exactly. they are small birds flying under the radar.
Yep, the total market cap for Canada big 5 banks are larger than China's ICBC ($260,000 millions for 5 vs. $214,000 millions for ICBC).

FYI, China's ICBC is the largest bank in the world by profit and market capitalization.

Even when we exclude the top 2 largest banks, ICBC and CCB from China. Canada banks are still small birds since UK HSBC holdings market cap is larger than the market cap for RY, TD and BMO/CM combined.

Only the market cap for RY, TD and BNS combined is slightly larger than HSBC holdings but then they are slightly less than CCB.

BTW, HSBC Holdings is top 5 global banks in terms of assets, more than either Bank of America or J P Morgan (both are top 10). RY will be lucky if the bank manages to be in top 50. ;)
 
B

burt-oh-my!

Yep, the total market cap for Canada big 5 banks are larger than China's ICBC ($260,000 millions for 5 vs. $214,000 millions for ICBC).

FYI, China's ICBC is the largest bank in the world by profit and market capitalization.

Even when we exclude the top 2 largest banks, ICBC and CCB from China. Canada banks are still small birds since UK HSBC holdings market cap is larger than the market cap for RY, TD and BMO/CM combined.

Only the market cap for RY, TD and BNS combined is slightly larger than HSBC holdings but then they are slightly less than CCB.

BTW, HSBC Holdings is top 5 global banks in terms of assets, more than either Bank of America or J P Morgan (both are top 10). RY will be lucky if the bank manages to be in top 50. ;)
Good grief, who cares about market cap? I would be perfectly happy owning a cmpany with a flat market cap, but eps and book value per share are rising because the company is buying back its own shares. Last thing an investor wants is to own a company which is pursuing growth and market share for its own ske, or worse still, because of some grandiose 'emperor-mentality' of its CEO.
 

hinz

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Nov 27, 2006
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Good grief, who cares about market cap? I would be perfectly happy owning a cmpany with a flat market cap, but eps and book value per share are rising because the company is buying back its own shares. Last thing an investor wants is to own a company which is pursuing growth and market share for its own ske, or worse still, because of some grandiose 'emperor-mentality' of its CEO.
Sure but when it comes to the assets size. Canada banks are nowhere closed to Top 50 and pretty much irrelevant outside North America. :rolleyes:
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
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I think Canada and Australia should unite in a federation of equals. The new country will be named AusCana and the Prime Minister will alternate. One term Canada and the next term Australia. It will be a country of 60 million people with a huge asset base.

P.S. Hope the Aussies aren't pissed off that we denied them Potash.
LMAO, it sounds like the United Arab Republic. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Republic

Not gonna happen since the Loonie is leveraged to Uncle Sam, while the Aussie is like it or not, leveraged to RMB.

BTW, it makes more sense for Australia and New Zealand to unite in a federation of equals. The "new" currency might be known as AK (Aussie and Kiwi).
 
B

burt-oh-my!

Sure but when it comes to the assets size. Canada banks are nowhere closed to Top 50 and pretty much irrelevant outside North America. :rolleyes:
Well, that's an EXTREMELY GOOD THING, don't u think? What do you mean, when you say 'irrelevant'? I'd rather be irrelevant and rich than relevant and poor any day. I think it is winderful that they missed out on the opportunity to get caught up with the US housing mess, or the european debt situation.
Anyhow, according to this:

http://www.bankersalmanac.com/addcon/infobank/bank-rankings.aspx

RBC is 37 and td somewhere near 50. You draw a comparative chart between these two with the others on that list, and I would venture a guess that with few exceptions the return from our 'irrelevant' Canadian banks was far better than their 'relevant' counterparts.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investin...lf=0&lf2=-1&lf3=0&type=2&size=3&optstyle=1013
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
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Well, that's an EXTREMELY GOOD THING, don't u think? What do you mean, when you say 'irrelevant'? I'd rather be irrelevant and rich than relevant and poor any day. I think it is winderful that they missed out on the opportunity to get caught up with the US housing mess, or the european debt situation.
Good thing up to a point and only when the company is so content/laid back that it should be the overseas companies coming to natural resource rich Canada to do business, not the other way around.

Just wait when the big Canadian corporations try to set up new business outside North America and ask the big 5 banks whether they could help, say financing.

Not going to be surprised the answer the corporations receive from the banks could be hmm...sorry but that's not what we do. We have no infrastructures outside North America, on the ground to do the due diligence. Even for countries where we have offices, we don't even have the scale, let alone "joining up" with the headquarters.

Guess who's going to pick up those businesses? Canadian banks for sure? Who will that be? :rolleyes:

Like the clunky US cousins, when you have almost 75% or more of the businesses are in North America, how are the banks going to grow without resorting the usual method of say, jacking up fees of all types (some call license to rob, nickle and dime) to keep the profit margin, even dividend payments? Any suggestion?

BTW, the disasters you mention have everything to do with greed, obscene compensation scheme and lack of risk management, not because of the size of the banks only.

Anyhow, according to this:

http://www.bankersalmanac.com/addcon/infobank/bank-rankings.aspx

RBC is 37 and td somewhere near 50. You draw a comparative chart between these two with the others on that list, and I would venture a guess that with few exceptions the return from our 'irrelevant' Canadian banks was far better than their 'relevant' counterparts.

http://www.marketwatch.com/investin...lf=0&lf2=-1&lf3=0&type=2&size=3&optstyle=1013
LMAO, the data on the ranking is pretty much outdated compared to the most recent one below,

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/best-banks/10619-worlds-50-biggest-banks.html

WRT Canadian banks as a group, they are fully valued, ripe for perfection. Their prices have more than reflected the soundness of the Canadian banks.

Not sure whether they are so overvalue to warrant shorting those shares. Perhaps the Canadian real estate bubbles could be a catalyst but don't count on it just yet.

Funny to notice you quote RY. Must be every dog has its day or something.
 

GPIDEAL

Prolific User
Jun 27, 2010
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We pay the price for stable Cdn banks with their high or many fees and dismal credit granting.
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
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The Brits also pay a price for their unstable banks.
Not exactly true. HSBC Holdings, Standard Chartered and Barclays never asked the Queen for help. :)

Only those Scottish accent jokers at RBS and HBOS did ask for bailouts.
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
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We pay the price for stable Cdn banks with their high or many fees and dismal credit granting.
There is always an option to bypass many fees. Just open accounts and get a MasterCard at President Choice Financial. :)
 

hinz

New member
Nov 27, 2006
5,672
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The Japanese behemoth banks all crashed and burned. They were pretty big in their day.
As their culture dictates, the Japanese were slow to react, let alone fix the mess. They are still paying the price after 20 years.

BTW, I wonder what kind of financial damage did the Yakuza suffer in the process. :eek:
 
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