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Any Blackjack Players.....

JEFF247

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that make the mistake of:

Splittings 10's
Not taking a hit on your hard 12 against the dealers 2 or 3
Taking Insurance

Disagree? Any other common mistakes I missed? Generally, most people don't take advantage of double downs. Most common, not splitting 9's except against the dealers 7, 10 or A and not doubling on A,7 against the dealers 3-6.

I generally play BJ or shoot Craps. Here's a craps game that's pretty good to pass the time:

http://wizardofodds.com/play/craps/
 

Malibook

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Basic Strategy is a good guideline but I disagree with some calls and I vary some decisions based on how the play is going like considering how often the dealer is busting when a bust should be likely and how often I am busting when a bust shouldn't be so likely.

I usually hit 12 against a 2 and sometimes against a 3 but not always.

I usually stay on 13 against a 2 or 3 but not always.

I hit 16 against a 7 but not always.

The book says to split 8,8 against everything but I think it is stupid to split against an A or 10 and I wouldn't split 8,8 against a 9 either.

I would only double A,7 against a 5 or 6 and there is no way I would double A,7 against a 3.

2 and 3 are not good bust cards for the dealer and I will only double against 2 and 3 with a 10 or 11.
I will split 7,7 and 8,8 against a 2 or 3 but I don't feel confident about it and sometimes I will just stay.
 

gcostanza

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Basic Strategy is a good guideline but I disagree with some calls and I vary some decisions based on how the play is going like considering how often the dealer is busting when a bust should be likely and how often I am busting when a bust shouldn't be so likely.

I usually hit 12 against a 2 and sometimes against a 3 but not always.

I usually stay on 13 against a 2 or 3 but not always.

I hit 16 against a 7 but not always.

The book says to split 8,8 against everything but I think it is stupid to split against an A or 10 and I wouldn't split 8,8 against a 9 either.

I would only double A,7 against a 5 or 6 and there is no way I would double A,7 against a 3.

2 and 3 are not good bust cards for the dealer and I will only double against 2 and 3 with a 10 or 11.
I will split 7,7 and 8,8 against a 2 or 3 but I don't feel confident about it and sometimes I will just stay.
I don't split 8's against a 10 or Ace, I figure I'm throwing good money after bad.
I look at a Dealer's 2 as an Ace, I'll double an A7 against a 3, but not a 2 .
I always hit up to (including) 16 against a Dealer's 7 or better.
 

Malibook

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Some of the moves of Basic Strategy are far more aggressive than others and are not always appropriate for everybody every time.
Some decisions that are fine when the table is hot and you are way up may not be appropriate when things are going bad.

Like splitting 8,8 against an A, 10, or even a 9.
Like doubling down with A,6 and A,7 against a 3.
Like doubling down a A,4 and A5 against a 4.
Like splitting 6,6 against a 2 or 3 or even 4.
Like splitting 2,2 against a 2 or 3.
Like splitting 3,3 against a 2 or 3.
 

JEFF247

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At least it looks like we all agree that "Insurance" is a bad bet. When the Casino offers you a deal, you got to know it's to their advantage. Buying insurance on a dealers A is bad, but buying insurance when you have BJ is even worse.
 

gcostanza

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I must be a fool :D , I always take Even Money when I have a Blackjack, and the dealer is showing an ace.
I figure I have the money up on the table, and that's what I wanted to win on the hand, and the casino is offering to pay me, I'll take it.
I know it's not the percentages play, but it is the "bird in the hand, is worth two in the bush" theory."
 

JEFF247

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You not a fool, just have fun. I've seen people playing horrible strategy leave winners! We all need luck too.

BUT, you are exactly the player the casino wants to have play. I mean no disrespect. I don't tell people how to play. Live and let live. I have seen people playing terrible and end up being winners and make me money too. I also shoot craps. It has some of the best odds in the casino. The free odds have NO house advantage at all. The house expects to make money on all the "proposition (sucker) bets." The Hard 8's, Field bets, etc.

The reason insuring your BJ against the dealers Ace is a worse choice is because you have one of the 16 tens in the deck that could give the dealer BJ. Improves your advantage even more. House advantage increases to 8%. That's slot machine territory!!

Good luck.
 

Malibook

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The reason insuring your BJ against the dealers Ace is a worse choice is because you have one of the 16 tens in the deck that could give the dealer BJ. Improves your advantage even more. House advantage increases to 8%. That's slot machine territory!!
4 of every 13 cards is a ten so the dealer has a 31% chance of having a BJ and you are giving up a potential 50% payout or paying a 50% premium so I agree that insurance is generally not a good deal.

I usually will not go for insurance but again it depends on how the play has been going and the size of my bet.
If I have a bigger bet out I will be more likely to be satisfied with even money on BJ.
I may take even money on a BJ but I would not insure less than 20.
If you have under 20, even when the dealer doesn't have BJ he could already have you beat or he can often draw to beat you and it's definitely not worth insuring.
 

Malibook

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The only time you should consider playing against basic strategy is if your bankroll is particularly vulnerable to fluctuation (that is, you don't have many betting units), or if you're counting cards and know how the count modifies it.
90% of Basic Strategy moves should be followed almost all of the time.

I totally disagree with some of the moves and the odds on some moves is so close that there is no always right and always wrong decision.

It is often like a race situation in Texas Holdem where you have a pair going against 2 over cards.
Yes the pair is a few percentage points favourite but it is still basically a coin toss and getting in with the slightly worse hand is not necessarily a bad play.

Hitting 12 against a 3 can easily go either way.
It is a shitty feeling if other players are playing for a bust and you bust with what would have been the dealer's bust card and he ends up killing everybody as a result.
You could just as easily end up being a hero and save everybody or have no effect on the outcome.
 

JEFF247

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A lot of times it boils down to:


I'm a by the book kind of gambler. I read 3 books before I startrd shooting craps. It helps me be consistent. Things go bad, I move to another table. I'm ahead, I leave. I don't care to gamble at Fallsview or Niagara, but I do. Your lucky if one table is open, let find another to go to. Vegas, there's 100's!
 

gcostanza

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I'm completely aware that Even Money is not the percentage play, and seriously, no offence taken.

I go back to the Bird in the Hand analogy, any time someone wants to pay off a bet of mine, I'll take the money.

I do follow "the book" most of the time, I guess that's where I missed a page or two. :D
 

Malibook

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Which moves do you disagree with? Where's your proof that they're wrong?

If you would consistently, regardless of circumstance, play the weaker hand in a "coin toss" in Hold 'Em, you will lose more often than you will win. It's that simple.
Did I say regardless of circumstance?
I said "not necessarily' as in sometimes it is a bad move and sometimes it is not.
The distinction is not necessarily hindsight based on the result.
Sometimes one can easily afford to take more chances and play more aggressively and sometimes one shouldn't.
Sometimes the person with the worse hand should take a chance and sometimes the person with the better hand shouldn't take the chance.

I would never split 8,8 against a A or 10.
I would never split 6,6 against a 2 or 3.

There are several situations where I will play one way or another depending on how the play has been going and the feel I have for the table and shoe.
Like hitting a 12 against a 2 or 3. Book says hit but I will sometimes stay.
Like hitting 13 against a 2. Book says stay but I will sometimes hit.

Book says to double on A,6 against a 3.
I might do this if I am up and playing with profits but I won't start out doing this or if I am down.
Same goes for splitting 2,2 or 3,3 against a 2 or 3.
These are more aggressive risky plays that are not always appropriate.

There are several borderline calls that can go either way for any given hand from any given shoe on any given day.
Just because a slight mathematical edge would be realized over several millions of possible hands doesn't mean that the side with the slight edge is always right and the other is always wrong.
The tiny sampling of any individual's play is nothing and statistically irrelevant and you can lose your shirt waiting for the odds to turn to the way the book says it should be.

Being lucky and finding a good seat with a low minimum and a large range to the maximum is important.
You have to have the option of easily moving to another of several tables with various numbers of players.
When every table is full with the odd open seat here or there and high minimums relative to your stack, your odds go down dramatically whether playing by the book or not.

If playing 100% by the book works for you, good for you.
Some people find that playing 85-95% by the book and the rest by feel works better for them.
 

JEFF247

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I am enjoying this discussion. I wouldn't do this at a table, so it's nice to discuss it openly.

I guess the hardest thing for me about Malibbok's strategy, is why would you ever take the lesser of two possible options. With me, the decision is always cut and dry. If I get agressive, it's with my betting.
 

gcostanza

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I have had this sort of discussion at tables, if there's a good group, and we've been playing for a while.
It's good to get other people's opinion on how they play, I've learned a few things that way.
It's interesting though, just about every veteran Blackjack player finishes his argument (philosophy) with: "It's your money, do what you think is right."
 

JEFF247

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I have had this sort of discussion at tables, if there's a good group, and we've been playing for a while.
It's good to get other people's opinion on how they play, I've learned a few things that way.
It's interesting though, just about every veteran Blackjack player finishes his argument (philosophy) with: "It's your money, do what you think is right."
I agree. Nothing worse that sitting with a bunch of miserable bastards. I've had people pound the table or call the female dealer a fucking asshole. I just get up and leave, but call the pit boss over to tell him why. I tell people what I would do if they ask. I hate it though when it doesn't work!!
 

Malibook

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I am enjoying this discussion. I wouldn't do this at a table, so it's nice to discuss it openly.

I guess the hardest thing for me about Malibbok's strategy, is why would you ever take the lesser of two possible options. With me, the decision is always cut and dry. If I get agressive, it's with my betting.
My strategy on borderline decisions is not cut in stone.
The cards are randomized and streaky and I like to make some decisions based on flow and feel.
A slight mathematical edge over several millions of hands is still basically a coin flip for any given hand.
Even 100 hands is statistically irrelevant to tight odds situations and the results for any given player can be skewed dramatically one way or the other.
The results on the next shoe could be completely reversed the other way or more skewed the same way.

If I am at a table where I am not catching any good cards and I am busting a lot and the dealer is not, I will quickly move.
I am not going to sit there figuring that the odds will eventually come around and work out the way the book says they should.
You can be broke way before that happens, if it happens.

Move around betting modestly until you find a good spot at a good time and then get while the getting is good.
If you have some good luck and are up a decent amount, make sure you leave with some of it and enjoy it. :)

Only risk what you can comfortably afford to lose.
 

Malibook

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I agree. Nothing worse that sitting with a bunch of miserable bastards. I've had people pound the table or call the female dealer a fucking asshole. I just get up and leave, but call the pit boss over to tell him why. I tell people what I would do if they ask. I hate it though when it doesn't work!!
I won't play with miserable assholes like that.
It seems like Lady Luck doesn't shine on miserable pricks but I supposed that is part of the reason they are miserable and then they seem to get more unlucky.

I have always had the best luck when playing with nice pleasant people.
I also like to have a nice dealer who is genuinely happy for you when you win. :)
 

gcostanza

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Do you tip the dealer if you're winning ?

If yes, do you give them the tip, or put them in the game ?
 

gcostanza

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I won't play with miserable assholes like that.
It seems like Lady Luck doesn't shine on miserable pricks but I supposed that is part of the reason they are miserable and then they seem to get more unlucky.

I have always had the best luck when playing with nice pleasant people.
I also like to have a nice dealer who is genuinely happy for you when you win. :)
I hate playing with miserable people, and won't stay very long at that table.
I also generally have better luck when playing with people who are in a good mood.
I find it's rare at Windsor or Niagara to have a dealer who isn't happy when players are winning.
 
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