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Any gold bugs here?

Tony321

New member
Dec 10, 2007
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What you guys think about the whistle blower Andrew Maguire's interview on King World News?
Do you think the price of Gold/Silver are manipulated by JP Morgan and Goldman Sacks with the help of the US Gov. to protect paper money mainly the US$?
How can they have 100 short for every physical oz of gold? If this is true then Maguire is right that a short squeeze will send the price of gold way up.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/business/metal_are_in_the_pits_2arTlGNbMK7mb1uJeVHb0O

Andrew Maguire's first interview on King World News.

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/Broadcast/Entries/2010/3/30_Andrew_Maguire_%26_Adrian_Douglass.html
 

rafterman

A sadder and a wiser man
Feb 15, 2004
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I'm not a gold bug but this recent article from the Globe & Mail about the possibility of "peak" gold is very interesting.

You've heard of peak oil. How about the impact of peak gold? April 13, 2010 By MARTIN MITTELSTAEDT
The idea of peak oil has helped light a fire under the price of petroleum, but now, another peak theory has emerged, this time involving gold.

Many precious metals analysts and gold miners are taking a cue from the claims that global oil production will exhibit a peak, and then begin an inexorable decline accompanied by sharply higher prices. They're starting to say the same concept applies equally well to bullion and may lead to outsized investment returns from buying the yellow metal.

Believers in peak gold say that mining has a number of uncanny similarities to oil extraction.

Just like the slow output declines and dwindling reserves observed at aging oil fields, many of the best gold deposits are exhibiting the same sort of geriatric tendencies, with their highest grades extracted long ago.

Another resemblance is that in both industries, the pace of new elephant-sized discoveries has decreased, despite rapidly expanded exploration budgets and the spur of sharply higher prices, which in gold's case have risen about 350 per cent since the metal's bull run began in March, 2001, when prices were under $260 (U.S.) an ounce.

While the jury is still out on whether oil production has reached its ultimate high point, world gold output reached its record level in 2001, and has generally fallen since then.

The peak gold debate

"There are a lot of people that subscribe to [peak gold]," comments Jason Goulden, researcher at Metals Economics Group, a Halifax-based firm that tracks trends for the mining industry, but doesn't take a formal position on the debate over whether gold output will enter a long period of decline.

Others aren't so reticent about saying that peak oil has a close cousin in peak gold. "I think it's similar to oil," says Ronald-Peter Stöferle, international equities analyst at Erste Group Bank, an Austrian-based bank.

"Peak gold is only one part of my really positive scenario" for the metal, Mr. Stöferle notes, adding that he believes gold could ultimately double from current price levels, to $2,300 an ounce, the inflation-adjusted high it attained way back during the inflationary days of early 1980.

Besides dwindling output, Mr. Stöferle is basing his bullish call on the traditional view among some investors that the yellow metal is a refuge in times of financial uncertainty over debt and paper currencies.

Some of the same people who've pioneered and popularized peak oil have also recently turned their sights on the precious metal, giving the idea further credence.

Jean Laherrère, an influential petroleum engineer who presciently predicted the end of cheap oil in the late 1990s, last year posted a 66-page report on the Oil Drum, a peak oil website, discussing whether global gold output will follow the same scenario being outlined for oil. He speculated gold reached its maximum output back in 2001. Mr. Laherrère could not be reached for comment.

A copycat move?

The notion that oil supplies would eventually peak and then fall was first advanced by U.S. geophysicist M. King Hubbert, who accurately predicted in the late 1950s that U.S. oil production would max out around 1970, and then go into permanent decline. The prediction was based on models that show the production at individual oil fields always traces a bell-shaped curve, with rapidly increasing output for a time, followed by a plateau, and then a gradual, permanent decline as reserves are exhausted.

Because oil is consumed and can never be recovered once burned, it's a scarier prospect than having dwindling gold output. Almost all the gold ever mined is around in bars, coins and wedding rings, and could be recycled, if need be, so the world will never really run out of the yellow metal.

The argument for peak gold has some peak oil advocates viewing it as a copycat move, a self serving justification for hopes of higher prices.

"I'm sure that you'll find that many in the resource industry will claim that they are now on the back side of their own Hubbert curve," says Jeff Rubin, former chief economist of CIBC World Markets, who has written a book about the end of the cheap oil era.

Sharp fall in output

According to the peak oil theory, as long as big new fields are being continually discovered, the date when maximum output occurs will be postponed.

In the gold market, the trend in recent discoveries has been disappointing. Metals Economics tracks new large gold deposits of more than two million ounces, and in recent years, the pace has been meagre.

Of the 62 major discoveries made from 1997 to 2008, almost half were found in the first three years - from 1997 to 1999.

"There used to be discoveries of four or five a year. Now, there are maybe one, two max a year," says John Ing, a mining analyst at Maison Placements Canada Inc. who is another believer in peak gold.

Those contending peak gold has already arrived also point to the sharp fall in output among many of the major producing countries. South Africa, long the top global producer, peaked back around 1970, and has been falling ever since. In more recent years, production has generally been declining in Canada, the U.S., Australia and Russia.

Some of the slack has been taken up by China, the new top producer, but there is skepticism the country can keep growing production.

Mr. Ing says many gold deposits there have poor reserves and are being rapidly depleted. "Their No. 1 ranking is very, very tenuous."

"The world as we know it does not need gold," he says. "The global economy could run perfectly well without gold if we decided to go to a total fiat currency. But the fact is that the world economy does not run without oil."

****

A less golden future

World gold production peaked in 2001, as a result of declining output in a number of major producing countries. The trend has caused some analysts to speculate that gold output is in a long-term decline, similar to the theory of peak oil that has been applied to falling petroleum output.

Total gold production in 2001 was 2,600 tonnes

, , , , , Big Four*

* South Africa, United States, Australia, Canada

2008 mine production

Total: 2,260 tonnes

China /12.2%

U.S. / 9.9%

S. Africa / 9.8%

Australia / 9.6%

Peru / 7.4%

Russia 7.0%

Canada / 4.2%

Indonesia / 3.8%

Uzbekistan / 3.6%

Ghana 3.4 %

Other / 29%

CARRIE COCKBURN/THE GLOBE AND MAIL 66 SOURCES: GFMS; U.S. GEOLOGICAL SURVEY

****

THE GROWTH APPEAL OF JUNIORS

One investment implication of peak gold is that it makes big producers unable to replace mined out reserves relatively less attractive than promising juniors sitting on newly discovered ore bodies. It also makes companies with new deposits takeover targets.

Investors "are shying away from the big caps and the mid caps now because of the lack of growth," mining analyst John Ing says. Typical of the trend away from big producers, he notes, was the sale last month by NovaGold Resources Inc. of $175-million in new stock to two savvy hedge funds, Soros Fund Management and Paulson & Co. The Soros Fund is run by billionaire investor George Soros,dubbed the man who broke the Bank of England in 1992 through a massive sale of British pounds, while John Paulson made a killing off the collapse in the U.S. housing market.

Novagold's major attraction is its stake in Alaska's Donlin Creek, one of the world's largest undeveloped gold deposits.

Mr. Ing says investors can pick up gold reserves in the ground through junior companies at the equivalent of $100 to $200 an ounce, a far cheaper way to play the trend to higher prices than buying bullion around its recent retail price of $1,150 an ounce.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Peak gold in precious metal investment shouldn't be a consideration
as important as peak oil in energy investment.

Gold isn't a commodity to be consumed like oil and base metals.
Gold is mainly a monetary metal and plays only a minor role as
an industrial metal. It is virtually indestructible and most of the
gold mined to this day since the beginning of history has survived.
So in a sense supply of gold will continue rising (peak gold or not)
until the world runs out of gold deposits to mine entirely.

Gold's market value will always be a measure of the lack of confidence
in fiat money. As long as the world sees value in the USD green toilet paper
will remain the major central bank reserve currency. The rise in gold price
from its bottom near $275 around 2000 parallels the depreciation
of the USD to this day. But even at a price range of $1100-$1200 the total
worth of all of the gold above the ground is only a minute fraction of the
total market value of all of the green toilet paper printed. So from a gold
bug's point of view gold price remains depressed.

I think in the coming years the USD will gradually lose its role as the
major reserve currency. Once nations and central banks begin to realize
that it is detrimental to their economy to held the USD in significant
quantities in their foreign exchange reserve you will see gold price
explode.
 

wetnose

Gamahucher
Nov 14, 2006
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It is virtually indestructible and most of the
gold mined to this day since the beginning of history has survived.
So in a sense supply of gold will continue rising (peak gold or not)
until the world runs out of gold deposits to mine entirely.
I think you meant to say that the total stock of gold will continue rising, but the supply (rate of increase) will slow down as less discoveries emerge.
 

wetnose

Gamahucher
Nov 14, 2006
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My one problem with gold is that it's a commodity that has no real useful purpose and value derives from people's desire for it. It's price has lagged inflation for the last 20 years and there's no reason to believe that it may continue (or not) to exhibit the same behaviour.

If I had to invest, I'd prefer commodities that I can understand: oil, base metals, coal and potash. If there're shortages, then price goes up. Simple.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,353
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My one problem with gold is that it's a commodity that has no real useful purpose and value derives from people's desire for it. It's price has lagged inflation for the last 20 years and there's no reason to believe that it may continue (or not) to exhibit the same behaviour.

If I had to invest, I'd prefer commodities that I can understand: oil, base metals, coal and potash. If there're shortages, then price goes up. Simple.
If you have any of this useless yellow metal, then I will be happy to take it off your hands.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
12,309
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Ghawar
The amount of gold needed for protection of ones wealth
against currency debasement varies with individuals.
As a pragmatic investor
I would deem a 5---10% asset allocation to bullion in my investment
portfolio to be adequate. Some gold bugs would recommend a much
larger weighing of gold bullions like 20--50%.

Now I don't have any global GDP data handy. But the total
quantity of gold above the ground is known to be about 10
billion ounces.
To simplify my analysis I would assume that 12 billion ounces of
gold are channeled to North America, Europe,
Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, BRIC and the top few oil
exporters not included in these countries. At a price of say $1200
the quantity of gold available by my estimate amounts to
roughly $4000 per capita. I cannot by any stretch of imagination
believe that this number would amount to anything more than an
insignificant fraction of the total wealth as measured by the total
quantity of fiat currencies in circulation in these countries.

Obviously in the real world wealth is not distributed equally.
Long before the bull market rally of gold reaches its top most of
the bullions would be acquired by the rich and the powerful leaving
us retail investors scramble for the tiny amount of the yellow metal
remaining in the market for speculation. Remember
there was a time when most of the gold bullions were concentrated
in the currency reserves of nations. The US alone at one time hold about
30,000 tons of gold bullions in reserve. I can see that many
investors may not see much upside potential in the market price of gold.
But in light of the ongoing global currency debasement with no end
in sight it seems the right thing to do for every investor to acquire a little gold
for the purpose of insurance if not investing. Gold may not be an appealing
investment to many stock investors. But as a hedge against a collapse of the
USD a modest position in gold shouldn't hurt.
 
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danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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The old adage says: Hold 15% of your wealth in gold and pray that it doesn't increase in value.
 

trbfn1

Member
Apr 1, 2010
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A change to the US dollar's status as the reserve currency would be the catalyst for spiking gold. And the trouble with thinking that would happen is that the US role as a nation of consumers necessarily makes all of the countries that export to the US inexorably tied to their economic policy and fiscal policy. If your clients stop buying, eventually the provider of the products or services feels that pinch. If the US debt and monetary policy continue to increase do to another negative ecpnomic influence, then they will inevitably get other countries to work with them on fiscal and monetary policy tha will keep the US dollar afloat. I fthe US can't import then the world suffers. So the second and more important benchmark required to cause any cage in Gold long term should be the emergence of BRIC consumers as the world leaders not only in consumption, but in relatd imports. Only the with a lessened role might the US dollar take the really big dive and get dethroaned as the world reserve currency. So watch the China and BRIC consumption story.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,353
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A change to the US dollar's status as the reserve currency would be the catalyst for spiking gold. And the trouble with thinking that would happen is that the US role as a nation of consumers necessarily makes all of the countries that export to the US inexorably tied to their economic policy and fiscal policy. If your clients stop buying, eventually the provider of the products or services feels that pinch. If the US debt and monetary policy continue to increase do to another negative ecpnomic influence, then they will inevitably get other countries to work with them on fiscal and monetary policy tha will keep the US dollar afloat. I fthe US can't import then the world suffers. So the second and more important benchmark required to cause any cage in Gold long term should be the emergence of BRIC consumers as the world leaders not only in consumption, but in relatd imports. Only the with a lessened role might the US dollar take the really big dive and get dethroaned as the world reserve currency. So watch the China and BRIC consumption story.
China is consuming more cars than the USA now.
 

SillyGirl

Can't Touch This
Apr 9, 2010
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Wandering Aimlessly
I was looking online this morning, and am wondering why gold coins are more expensive than gold bars? The bars are more pure, and they weigh the same. Is it because some people collect the coins, there's more of a resale factor? or are the coins just more expensive to produce?

If I'm not planning on selling them, does it really matter which I buy?
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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I was looking online this morning, and am wondering why gold coins are more expensive than gold bars? The bars are more pure, and they weigh the same. Is it because some people collect the coins, there's more of a resale factor? or are the coins just more expensive to produce?

If I'm not planning on selling them, does it really matter which I buy?
There is a coinage premium, but you will also see a premium on small bars relative to the 400Oz Good delivery bars.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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Apologies if someone already asked this question, is the purchase of gold bars subject to the new HST?
I believe that there are no GST or PST on gold bars and gold coins of 24 carat purity.
 

jetfuel

Active member
Jan 31, 2005
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I am very interested in buying gold. Would Kitco be the best place for Canadians to buy gold coins etc? Am I better off buying Gold ETF's and stocks.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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I am very interested in buying gold. Would Kitco be the best place for Canadians to buy gold coins etc? Am I better off buying Gold ETF's and stocks.
Thwere is also the Bullion Milennium fund.
 
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