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Paying for a house or condo without a mortgage?

Adrenaline

Banned
Mar 26, 2009
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Say you're interested in buying a house or condo that's 400k. Assuming you have more than 400k in your bank account, and can pay off the house or condo in full without taking out a mortgage, is it worth it to save on the interest payments you'd be making if you took out a mortgage and pay for the property in full? Or would you be better off taking out a mortgage and leaving that money for investment where you can potentially make gains above and beyond the interest you'd be paying for your mortgage?

I know that it all depends on the returns that are expected to be made on my investments, but if someone is good at crunching out the numbers based on average returns in the current market (stocks, bonds, GIC's, savings acccounts etc.) vs. current interest on a mortgage, I'd love to see the numbers. Of course everything is highly variable in the scenario I've given, but your thoughts would be appreciated.
 

fmahovalich

Active member
Aug 21, 2009
7,255
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One option

Put the cash into the house.

If your that confident in your investing - borrow the money for the Investments...and write off the interest!!

Either way...your on the hook for 400 k - it comes down to...."DO YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO INVEST AND WIN"
 

Whosyodaddy

New member
Dec 9, 2003
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As noted in the above... Pay cash for the house, secure a line of credit for 75% LTV ( Loan to Value ) or about 300 K. For investments to be deductible, you should leave as clean a line between the borrowed cash and the resulting investment. IE, if you pay three grand in interest, it is deductible as an investment expense.

Now find three investment brokers and give them 100 K each, tell them all at the end of every second year, you fire and replace the lowest producer.

THat's kinda like three kids and only two hot dogs !!!
 

WhaWhaWha

Banned
Aug 17, 2001
5,991
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Between a rock and a hard place
Im currently paying 1% interest on my Mortgage and I'm locked in til next summer. My Mortgage payments are almost all principle. I am motivated to invest elsewhere
 

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
4,712
55
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The doctor is in
Im currently paying 1% interest on my Mortgage and I'm locked in til next summer. My Mortgage payments are almost all principle. I am motivated to invest elsewhere
How did you get a locked in rate at 1%??
 

Rail Thin

Member
Nov 25, 2009
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16
Im currently paying 1% interest on my Mortgage and I'm locked in til next summer. My Mortgage payments are almost all principle. I am motivated to invest elsewhere
Yes. Please share, how were you able to secure this rate? I would jump all over this.
 

duang

Active member
Apr 17, 2007
1,121
0
36
numbers

Say you're interested in buying a house or condo that's 400k. Assuming you have more than 400k in your bank account, and can pay off the house or condo in full without taking out a mortgage, is it worth it to save on the interest payments you'd be making if you took out a mortgage and pay for the property in full? Or would you be better off taking out a mortgage and leaving that money for investment where you can potentially make gains above and beyond the interest you'd be paying for your mortgage?

I know that it all depends on the returns that are expected to be made on my investments, but if someone is good at crunching out the numbers based on average returns in the current market (stocks, bonds, GIC's, savings acccounts etc.) vs. current interest on a mortgage, I'd love to see the numbers. Of course everything is highly variable in the scenario I've given, but your thoughts would be appreciated.
Assuming you borrow $300K [can get up to 80% normally but this leaves you a cushion and $300K is a nice round number] you have to then make an assumption about your expected long term interest rate and your tax bracket. Looking out 10 or 20 years you might start with a 5% long term borrowing cost [much lower right now but who knows when renewing and if you will go variable or fixed then]. If you assume a 40% tax bracket then your after tax cost of borrowing is 3.0%.

You then have to make an assumption about your long term growth rate. You could use 6%, 8% and 10% for starters if you will be using mostly equities for long term growth [which is presumably your main objective].


principle...... interest rate..... 10 years [net]...... 20 years [net]

$300K....... 6% growth.......... $537K [$190K]......... $962K [$530K]
............... 8% growth......... $648K [$278K]......... $1.4M [$879K]
............... 10% growth......... $778K [$382K]......... $2.0M [$1.37M]


The net values shown in brackets are after paying off the $300K loan and then paying capital gains tax of 20% [i.e. half your assumed 40% tax rate].

You would have to pay the 3% after tax interest cost each year [i.e. $9K or $750 monthly] to carry the leveraged loan but this lets the $300K investment compound.

This scenario doesn't account for tax on distributions from the investments but there are mutual fund vehicles that eliminate or minimize distributions and convert them all to capital gains [even from interest payments] when the investments are eventually sold.

The large net amounts you might expect to gain will advance your long term plans significantly. One way to get a sense of this is to think how much net you would like from your investments to augment your retirement cash flow. You can take this number [$30K, $50K, etc.] and divide it into the net after tax gain you would have from leveraging and this might approximate how many years earlier you can retire.

To compare apples to apples you could consider what you would do with the $9K per year carrying cost that would be available if you didn't leverage. Investing the $9000 per year carrying cost would grow to $130K over ten years at 8% growth and this would net out to $122K after capital gain taxes [compared to $278K net above under the same assumptions if you leveraged]. Over the twenty years, investing the $9000 per annum would net $365K after taxes vs. a net of $879K by leveraging.
Hope that provides some insight and let me know if you have any questions or comments.

D.
 

Adrenaline

Banned
Mar 26, 2009
381
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Assuming you borrow $300K [can get up to 80% normally but this leaves you a cushion and $300K is a nice round number] you have to then make an assumption about your expected long term interest rate and your tax bracket. Looking out 10 or 20 years you might start with a 5% long term borrowing cost [much lower right now but who knows when renewing and if you will go variable or fixed then]. If you assume a 40% tax bracket then your after tax cost of borrowing is 3.0%.

You then have to make an assumption about your long term growth rate. You could use 6%, 8% and 10% for starters if you will be using mostly equities for long term growth [which is presumably your main objective].


principle...... interest rate..... 10 years [net]...... 20 years [net]


$300K....... 6% growth.......... $537K [$190K]......... $962K [$530K]
............... 8% growth......... $648K [$278K]......... $1.4M [$879K]
............... 10% growth......... $778K [$382K]......... $2.0M [$1.37M]


The net values shown in brackets are after paying off the $300K loan and then paying capital gains tax of 20% [i.e. half your assumed 40% tax rate].

You would have to pay the 3% after tax interest cost each year [i.e. $9K or $750 monthly] to carry the leveraged loan but this lets the $300K investment compound.

This scenario doesn't account for tax on distributions from the investments but there are mutual fund vehicles that eliminate or minimize distributions and convert them all to capital gains [even from interest payments] when the investments are eventually sold.

The large net amounts you might expect to gain will advance your long term plans significantly. One way to get a sense of this is to think how much net you would like from your investments to augment your retirement cash flow. You can take this number [$30K, $50K, etc.] and divide it into the net after tax gain you would have from leveraging and this might approximate how many years earlier you can retire.

To compare apples to apples you could consider what you would do with the $9K per year carrying cost that would be available if you didn't leverage. Investing the $9000 per year carrying cost would grow to $130K over ten years at 8% growth and this would net out to $122K after capital gain taxes [compared to $278K net above under the same assumptions if you leveraged]. Over the twenty years, investing the $9000 per annum would net $365K after taxes vs. a net of $879K by leveraging.
Hope that provides some insight and let me know if you have any questions or comments.

D.

So what's the short answer? Am I better off paying for the condo in full at the onset, or taking out a mortgage?
 

HOF

New member
Aug 10, 2009
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Relocating February 1, 2012
Buy the condo outright! It's equity, and when you get some coin ahead buy a rental property too.
 

tboy

resident smartass
Aug 18, 2001
15,972
0
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63
way out in left field
Actually, and believe me I don't know the benefits of doing this, there is a third option:

YOU hold the mortgage on YOUR property.

I know a couple of people who did this and for the life of me, I can't figure out the benefit but hey, it suited them (I think because the property was being used as a home based business)......
 

duang

Active member
Apr 17, 2007
1,121
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36
So what's the short answer? Am I better off paying for the condo in full at the onset, or taking out a mortgage?
Mortgage [assuming you will do better on your investments than your interest cost].

Aim to make long term growth of 8-10% compounding your investment and pay ~3% interest [after tax] to carry the mortgage.

D.
 

WhaWhaWha

Banned
Aug 17, 2001
5,991
1
0
Between a rock and a hard place
How did you get a locked in rate at 1%??
Yes. Please share, how were you able to secure this rate? I would jump all over this.
Locked in at a variable rate when they dropped to rock bottom. Bank interest is at an alltime low and I'm locked in at a variable rate of prime less .85. Currently the Prime rate is 2.25 and I am paying 1.4. This rate was guarateed to hold until end of summer 2010.
 

johnbean

Member
Jul 1, 2006
46
0
6
options

I'm no fan of the thought of buying in an overpriced market like Toronto... but I also don't have $400 K sitting around.

Maybe you can do a bit of both, to guard against too much leverage (borrowing to invest) or not having enough left over if you bought the condo outright to make gains in the market.

Why not 50/50??

A competent financial advisor should be able to run the numbers for you, for all types of scenarios... ie. full mortgage, 50/50, no mortgage.

In the long run, your condo value should appreciate nicely, although nothing is guaranteed.

If you are investing looking for solid, safe dividends and returns, consider these ETFs: XDV.to (high dividend stocks on the TSX), XRE.to (Real Estate Income Trusts, yielding over 7%), CDZ.to (another high dividend fund). If the banks stock price corrects down a bit, also consider (XFN.to, fund of mainly banks). But bank prices are near (within 10-20%) their all-time highs and it would not make sense to enter that right now.

Solid value dividend investing can really grow that 400k. Without any further additions to the 400k, it will grow to $1.3 million in 20 years just by plopping it in solid dividend stocks (at a yield of 6%). Hard to advise against that.

On the other hand, I would highly recommend NOT trying to PLAY the market by picking winners or timing it. You stand a good chance of losing out big time with the type of volatility and uncertainty. If the market corrects down to 8000 or so, there will be many good buy and hold dividend stocks/funds to snap up.
 

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
4,712
55
48
The doctor is in
Bear in mind, that interest rates are predicted to rise sharply after next summer. As such, carrying a mortgage may not seem as attractive an option in the coming years.
 

duang

Active member
Apr 17, 2007
1,121
0
36
Bear in mind, that interest rates are predicted to rise sharply after next summer. As such, carrying a mortgage may not seem as attractive an option in the coming years.
Interest rates might even rise then as the talking heads predict. It might take longer though even though it seems so obvious now that rates have to rise.

In any case, since your interest costs will be tax deductible you only bear 55-60% of the potential increase since you will get back 40-45% of the increase in tax savings [depending upon your marginal tax rate].

I previously suggested using a 5% long term cost of borrowing to reflect the reality that interest costs right now are historically low and you should expect the future costs to be higher. You can lock in the next 5 years right now at ~4% so that's a good start.

D.
 
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