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Pension Plans

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
4,712
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The doctor is in
I have a defined contribution plan at work. Approximately 10% of my gross is going into this fund per year, when combined with employer matching. What are the advantages and disadvantages to this type of arrangement?? Is there a way I can transfer this money out when I hit retirement age?? I want to be able to take the lump sum and give it to my own advisor to invest. Someone told me that this had to be done through a locked in plan. What about turning it into an annuity?? I don't think that's the way to go, but I'm not really sure, either. I'd like to know the best way to manage it. Anyone with any insight/advice??

Thanks.
 

Hollaz

New member
Mar 28, 2006
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drlove said:
Is there a way I can transfer this money out when I hit retirement age?? I want to be able to take the lump sum and give it to my own advisor to invest.
There are few circumstances when you should remove savings out of a pension plan and hand it over to an adviser most of which work on commission. This can be very dangerous, and it's hard to outperform an institutional sponsored pension plan which has lower fees.
 

Fortunato

New member
Apr 27, 2003
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drlove said:
I have a defined contribution plan at work. Approximately 10% of my gross is going into this fund per year, when combined with employer matching. What are the advantages and disadvantages to this type of arrangement?? Is there a way I can transfer this money out when I hit retirement age?? I want to be able to take the lump sum and give it to my own advisor to invest. Someone told me that this had to be done through a locked in plan. What about turning it into an annuity?? I don't think that's the way to go, but I'm not really sure, either. I'd like to know the best way to manage it. Anyone with any insight/advice??

Thanks.
The advantages of "defined contribution" are generally with the employer... it gives them certainty over their future pension liability. If the actuaries are using unrealistic assumptions about low future benefits or high asset returns, defined contribution could also protect you at the time of transfer (i.e. your assets are clearly understood - your contributions, your employer's contributions, and the earnings on both of those - whereas a defined benefit value would be the hypothetical present value of a complicated benefit calculation).

Perhaps the biggest benefit of a defined contribution plan is that (most often) you are given the choice on how the funds are invested. This allows you to make better "overall" portfolio decisions with your registered and non-registered assets. It may also be the worst thing about it, if the pensioner is poorly informed in asset and portfolio management. Likewise, in most cases while in the plan itself, you will be restricted to investing in GICs and a few mutual fund choices, so you will have limited options, many with management fees.

Annuities, in my opinion, are too expensive - especially when interest rates are low.

You can, indeed, transfer the money into a LIRA ("locked in" account), and with very few exceptions (like that you cannot make early withdrawls), it is virtually the same as having an RSP/RIF. You can even choose to self-direct them, if you like.

Best regards,

F.
 

Fortunato

New member
Apr 27, 2003
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Hollaz said:
There are very few circumstances when you should remove savings out of a pension plan (e.g. maybe if the plan isn't fully funded and the company is in financial difficulty) and hand it over to an adviser most of which work on commission. This can be very dangerous, and it's hard to outperform an institutional sponsored pension plan which has lower fees.
You are confusing a defined benefits plan (your traditional "pension", where issues like funding and company viability are relevant, and where there are actually portfolio managers investing the assets) with defined contribution plans. Defined contribution plans are essentially mutual fund company accounts, where the employer's responsibility ends at the point of contributing a certain amount of money.

The employee generally manages these funds anyways (within a very limited number of options); so, I find it's better to move them to where you can shop for prices (better rates, different commissions, different funds with lower fees, different products altogether, etc.), rather than stay restricted.

Discount brokers offer LIRA as well, so commissions and fees can easily be reduced.

Best regards,

F.
 

lickrolaine

Member
Jun 29, 2003
764
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16
the 10 percent is only part of the equation.At the end of the year do you have any "room" left over? Meaning is your max contribution being met every year.If you have no room,then you are already contributing as much as you can,good for you.If you still have room,then you can invest in other areas to take advantage of the tax savings,today.I think you are allowed 18 percent of gross to a max of 15 or 18 thousand for 2006? So someone making 200,000 grand is already maxed out at 10 percent.Someone making 100,000 grand will still have around 8 grand or so to invest in an RRSP of their choice.
 

james t kirk

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2001
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The problem with employer pension plans as I see it is if you die prematurely (god forbid), then your estate gets 0 from all those contributions you made.

I think of my mother who was a teacher who contributed a ton of money to the teachers pension plan. She was retired for all of 5 years before she passed away way too young. Though my father collected survivor bennefits (she had to sign off on him, thus reducing her pension cheques) he died within a few years too.

Both my parents had employer pension plans, both died young and never realized the contributions they made.

Of course, if you live to be 90, you definitely come out on the upside of a pension.
 

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,575
205
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The Keebler Factory
james t kirk said:
The problem with employer pension plans as I see it is if you die prematurely (god forbid), then your estate gets 0 from all those contributions you made.
Why should your estate see anything from your pension plan? It's a pension, not a general investment plan.
 

polisci

Member
Jul 9, 2004
204
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james t kirk said:
The problem with employer pension plans as I see it is if you die prematurely (god forbid), then your estate gets 0 from all those contributions you made.

Both my parents had employer pension plans, both died young and never realized the contributions they made.
Did you parents not designate a beneficiary of their employer pension plans ?
When you pass away, it transfers over to the beneficiary (can be anyone)
 

papasmerf

New member
Oct 22, 2002
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polisci said:
Did you parents not designate a beneficiary of their employer pension plans ?
When you pass away, it transfers over to the beneficiary (can be anyone)
If you make me your beneficiar I will get it
 

polisci

Member
Jul 9, 2004
204
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drlove said:
I have a defined contribution plan at work. Approximately 10% of my gross is going into this fund per year, when combined with employer matching. What are the advantages and disadvantages to this type of arrangement?? Is there a way I can transfer this money out when I hit retirement age?? I want to be able to take the lump sum and give it to my own advisor to invest. Someone told me that this had to be done through a locked in plan. What about turning it into an annuity?? I don't think that's the way to go, but I'm not really sure, either. I'd like to know the best way to manage it. Anyone with any insight/advice??
Thanks.

You can transfer your defined contribution pension plan when you leave your employer to a financial advisor & it would change to a locked-in RRSP. The pros & cons of a financial advisor are for another day. Forget about annuities, they suck. There is no best way to manage your company pension plan. It's all depends on what investment products choices your employer has allowed the employees to choose from. Try to go with low fee products with a decent return.
 

Papi Chulo

Banned Permanently
Jan 30, 2006
2,556
0
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polisci said:
Did you parents not designate a beneficiary of their employer pension plans ?
When you pass away, it transfers over to the beneficiary (can be anyone)

What if I pick a beneficiary in another country?
 

bobistheowl

New member
Jul 12, 2003
4,403
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Toronto
After two years of plan membership, (less if stated in the Plan document), your benefits are both vested, meaning that you qualify to receive benefits based on the Employer's contributions, and locked-in, meaning the the benefits must ultimately be received as a retirement annuity or RRIF. You cannot, on termination, receive any portion of your Employee contributions, unless those contributions were made prior to the date of either the Pension Benefits Act of Ontario, (January 1, 1987), or the Pension Benefits Standards Act, (January 1, 1965, if your Plan is registered Federally).

On termination prior to age 55, you can transfer the accumulated retirement benefits to a locked-in RRSP, or other locked-in Plan. In some circumstances, you can use the benefits from one Plan to purchase Past Service benefits in another successive Plan in which you participate. For example, the Teacher's Pension Plan in Ontario allows members to purchase Past Service benefits for a period of time in which they participated in another registerd pension plan, regardless of whether the benefits were vested in that previous Plan. You have the option of applying to receive benefits from a locked-in Plan on or after attaining age 55, provided that you are not currently participating in the same Plan.

The amount that both you and your Employer contribute to the plan lowers the amount of voluntary money that you can contribute to a voluntary personal RRSP, which has no locking-in provisions.
 

lickrolaine

Member
Jun 29, 2003
764
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Papi Chulo said:
What if I pick a beneficiary in another country?
beneficiary is one thing,a surviving spouse is another.The CAW had a rule put in that if someone re-married their spouse could not be over 20 yrs younger,not sure what the penalty was if it did happen.A surviving spouse receives less and some plans even pay the contributor less,but still more then the surviving spouse will receive upon their death.Surviving spouse is usually 60 percent.Most plans will let you pull all the money out at end value but that may not be in your best interest.
 

drlove

Ph.D. in Pussyology
Oct 14, 2001
4,712
55
48
The doctor is in
lickrolaine said:
the 10 percent is only part of the equation.At the end of the year do you have any "room" left over? Meaning is your max contribution being met every year.If you have no room,then you are already contributing as much as you can,good for you.If you still have room,then you can invest in other areas to take advantage of the tax savings,today.I think you are allowed 18 percent of gross to a max of 15 or 18 thousand for 2006? So someone making 200,000 grand is already maxed out at 10 percent.Someone making 100,000 grand will still have around 8 grand or so to invest in an RRSP of their choice.
I'm very close to maxing out. After I do, I'm planning on investing my extra cash in a non registered fund.
 

bobistheowl

New member
Jul 12, 2003
4,403
3
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Toronto
Re: Surviving Spouse

Under both the Pension Benefits Act of Ontario and the Federal Pension Benefits Standards Act, (Plans are usually registered Federally if they are engaged in interprovincial business, such as banking, transportation, fur trade, etc.), the normal form of pension annuity is a joint and survivor ,(J&S),pension, payable for the full lifetimes of the annuitant and spouse, with not less than 60% continuation to the survivor on death.

If the annuitant wishes to receive a form of life pension that doesn't meet these conditions, the spouse must first sign a waiver form which acknowledges that a pension payable jointly with 60% continuation was offered, but the spouse waives entitlement to the manditory continuing life benefits.

Spousal waivers are very common when the spouse is somewhat older than the annuitant, or where the spouse's person pension or assets far exceed those of the annuitant. Many men sign away the joint annuitant benefits for their spouse's personal pension plan.

If the spouse has signed the waiver, the annuitant is under no obligation to name the spouse as beneficiary of any guaranteed payments. A typical pension which is not J&S is single life, with a minimum of five or ten years of payments guaranteed.

There is no problem with a J&S pension with more than 60% continuation to the surviving joint annuitant, and it is possible, though uncommon, to have a J&S pension which reduced to 60% continuation on the death of either the annuitant or the surviving spouse.

Legislation no longer allows for a J&S pension with someone other than a spouse as the joint annuitant,such as a dependent, relative, friend, or partner who does not meet the legislation's definition of a spouse, (a recent commonlaw spousal arrangement, for instance).

The determination of who is the spouse is made at the earlier of the date of pension commencement or the date of the annuitant's death.

Ontario Provincial and Federal pension legislation have different definitions of who is the spouse, and the hierarchy of recognition, if there is more than one person who might be considered the spouse. Under Federal legislation, the first recognized spouse would be a person with whom the annuitant has cohabited in a conjugal relationship, having cohabited for at least one year. If no one meets that definition, the Plan would recognize the person who is legally married to the annuitant as being the spouse.

What this means is that, if you are separated, but not divorced, the spouse from whom you are separated is recognized as having the spousal rights, unless you are in a commonlaw relationship that meets the legislation's definition of commonlaw, at the time of pension commencement. For Ontario legislation, I think it's two years commonlaw, or if the annuitant and spoouse have had one or more children together.

The joint annuitant cannot be changed after the pension starts. If the spouse dies, and the annuitant has a new spouse later in life, benefits will end on the annuitant's death. If the annuitant and spouse part ways after the pension starts, that spouse will still receive the continuing benefits for life, if the annuitant dies. The vindictive annuitant thereby has additional incentive to outlive the spouse.

The amount of pension payable in J&S form may be equal to, or actuarially equivalent to, the normal form of pension under the plan. If it's actuarially equivalent, the amount of pension in the normal actuarial form will be multipled by a percentage which is based on the ages of both the member and spouse at the time of pension commencement, mortality statistics, (ie: the averge remaining lifetimes of people from a given age onward), and the interest rate assumptions used by the actuary.
 

Uzo

Member
Jul 30, 2002
551
0
16
What if you work for an organization for a limited time and made contributions during that time and quit?

What happens then? Do you lose those contributions that were matched? Do you get your money back? Wait until retirement?

I'm sure people change jobs in their lifetime, just wondering how that works out with these plans.
 
polisci said:
You can transfer your defined contribution pension plan when you leave your employer to a financial advisor & it would change to a locked-in RRSP. The pros & cons of a financial advisor are for another day.
Uzo, in Ontario if worked > 2 yrs, see above quote. :rolleyes:
For exact wording, see thread #12 from Bob above.
 
Fortunato said:
If the actuaries are using unrealistic assumptions about low future benefits or high asset returns, defined contribution could also protect you at the time of transfer (i.e. your assets are clearly understood - your contributions, your employer's contributions, and the earnings on both of those - whereas a defined benefit value would be the hypothetical present value of a complicated benefit calculation).
Not just assumptions, in few cases wrong formulas.
 

lickrolaine

Member
Jun 29, 2003
764
0
16
drlove said:
I'm very close to maxing out. After I do, I'm planning on investing my extra cash in a non registered fund.
So now you get to the fun part of life,cool and good for you,a lot of people never get there.
What investments will you look at,in order to defer income and not add to your tax load? This is where RE really sucks cause of the capital gains tax,or is there a way to invest around this.
Your next move is to move off shore denounce your Canadian,or American citizenship and pay very little tax?
Maybe buy a ship line and fly the flag of some third world country,oops been done already,lol.
 

Keebler Elf

The Original Elf
Aug 31, 2001
14,575
205
63
The Keebler Factory
In this day and age, I've kinda soured on all but the best run pension plans (e.g., the teachers, gov't, etc.). I've heard too many horror stories about companies insufficiently funding their portion of their plans (while the employees pay their full agreed upon share), resulting in the plans being unsustainable or, worse, the company goes tits up and everyone loses everything. Yes, there is a pension insurance fund, but it's insufficient to cover most of the people who have plans (I remember reading that if Stelco went under, that company alone would wipe out the insurance plan for the rest of Canada).

I'd rather invest myself. That way, I have no one to blame but myself if I lose everything. And I'd rather have employer contributions to RRSPs or some other kind of investment that isn't linked to the success or failure of the company.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts